8x10 for Wet Plate

[Jon_2416]

After selling my TK45 a few years ago, and spending altogether too much time peering through the teensy VF of my 5D MKII, I'm getting the urge to have an 8x10 for wet plate.

Have a few old Gundlach projector lenses I might play with and I'll probably get one decrepit 'real' lens for portraits. Not interested in sharp at the expense of character.

I've always liked the Toyo 810MII as being able to pack up the kit reasonably small would be nice, but I'm not set on any camera as of yet. Any camera suggestions from you alt process folks?

Sorry that this is a tad vague, but I watched Ian Ruhter's Silver and Light (http://jonwitsell.com/ian-ruhter-silver-light/) again and figured I should start thinking about what camera to base my kit around.

Any compelling reasons to go with one camera over another?

Thanks!

Jon

[Mark Sawyer]

Don't worry about size or weight at all. With wet plate, you're tied to having a complete darkroom along with you anyways.

Movements are very important, as you'll almost always be working with a wide aperture, meaning minimal depth of field.

The wet plate back/holder is a big consideration. I'd suggest converting conventional film holders to plate holders, as you can avoid having to make or buy a custom back. This means you'll be restricted to whole plate (6.5x8.5) or smaller, as you need a little room around the plate. Personally, I have trouble handling a plate larger than 6x8, as I can't get my fingers around both edges of larger plates.

[jodyake]

if you think you are going to want a nice big brass len make sure you get a camera that has a big front standard. bigger studio cameras work great if you dont have to move the camera far. I also like old Skyscraper cameras because of the beefy front standards. They are great if you are going to shoot in the field. As for plate holders, converting modern film holder work great if you dont mind shooting smaller than 8x10. just make sure you varnish the inside of the holder so the silver nitrate wont eat it away. If you want to shoot full 8x10 plates check out the wet plate holders I make.
http://incameraindustries.com/

[Tony Karnezis]

Hi Jon,

I recently shot my first 8x10 wet plates under the excellent tutelage of Kerik Kouklis. I own an 8x10 Kodak Master (aka Kodak Masterview, KMV) and, from what I can tell, it's very well suited for wet plate.

First, the front standard is surprisingly strong and can handle probably anything that can fit on its 6 inch lens board. You can steady the front standard by attaching a Manfrotto long lens support to the front extension track. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/554349-REG/Manfrotto_359_359_Long_Lens_Support.html

Second, if you're inclined, you can cheaply machine your own lens boards from 1/16" aluminum stock and make a simple, effective light trap from velcro. Check out post 32 by Kerik in http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?76654-Kodak-Master-8x10(KMV)-vs-Calumet-C-1/page4.

Third, I find the camera very intuitive and fast to operate. It has a sliding double-extension front track and geared rear focus. This allows you to quickly rack out the lens and then fine tune the focus at the rear. There's also geared front rise for fine adjustments. In addition, if you plan on shooting in colder climates, the large, gently contoured knobs are easily operated with gloves and are easy on your skin without them. Only the geared focusing knob and the knob that locks the front extension track are knurled.

Fourth, it's almost entirely metal, so I don't worry chemicals & stains like I would with a prettier camera.

I own Jody's wet plate holder. Other than a slightly tight dark slide, it works well, and its black plastic and metal construction match the Kodak's aesthetic.

Hope this helps.

[Jon_2416]

Oh, thanks a lot guys! What started as a bit of research for a future project has turned into full on Gear Acquisition Syndrome. :o

I haven't broken out my large collection of alt process books lately, but I've also been thinking about dry plate. Here are some examples from someone I just met on LinkedIn:

http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl/2012/09/making-dry-plate-glass-negatives-with.html
http://www.normanpost.nl/portfolio.html

I guess what it comes down to is that I'm after a certain look--I'm not hung up on which process.

Mark: Thanks for the reply. Duh, I wasn't even considering the fact that weight isn't going to be an issue with a whole darkroom it tow. I'm still would probably want a camera that isn't titanic, just in case I do want to shoot dry plate or regular film. But you are right, if wet plate is the priority, then weight is the last thing I should worry about.

Jody: Thanks for the post. You will find this interesting: what got me thinking about alt processes again was seeing your ad in Diffusion magazine (I've purchased each issue for the first four years; great mag). I saw the 8x10 holder and then started thinking about cameras which led me to this post... :)

Tony: Thanks for the reply. That does look like the perfect camera... I've looked around a bit (not too thouroughly) and haven't seen many for sale. Not much on ePay. I'll post in the classifieds here. Do you mind telling me what you paid for it?

I worked as a designer of motion picture gear, so designing and machining are no problem for me. Thanks for the link to that post, I'll read it next.

The training with Kerik must have been amazing. Did you take a class with him or a one-on-one? Hmmm, that might be a worthwhile thing for me to jump start the process and get over all the big mistakes all at once... :D

Anything else you guys can think to share, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks again,

Jon

[life_in_sepia]

Jon, you might want to consider a Chamonix with wet plate back, as an option:

http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/wetplateholders.html

You can also consider a built wet plate camera, from Ty or Steve at BlackArtWoodcraft:

http://www.guillorycameras.com/

http://www.blackartwoodcraft.com/wet-plate-cameras/

I've owned a camera from each of Ty and BAW, and had great use from each.

Though converted film backs work, a dedicated wet plate back works mo betta.

Although of course a subjective issue, but I prefer whole plate to 8x10 (having the ability to shoot either). It is a nice size for pouring, etc. You will also find it much easier to find a suitable petzval lens for whole plate than 8x10, I think. Just 2 more cents for ya!

[Jon_2416]

Oh yeah, Ed. You are making this a lot easier... :)

Is it just the hold-ability of the whole plate (6.5 x 8.5 inch correct?) that you like over 8x10? Or is it the aesthetic of the format, or? I haven't researched, but if you buy a dedicated whole plate camera, can you still use 8x10 film with it? I'm just supposing you would need an 8x10 back for the camera then?

I guess what I'd also like is to shoot square also. And I prefer to do in-camera instead of cropping or another workaround. I think that would be just be a matter of setting up some sort of pin, for example, to hold an 8x8" plate in an 8x10" holder. Hmm, more to think about.

I've been looking through the 'Nude' thread and have looked at many of your images. Gorgeous. Thanks for posting.

Jon

[life_in_sepia]

Ha ha -- yes, lots of decisions on the horizon.

If you want the option of shooting film (nice), then I'd suggest either (a) the Chamonix with their wet plate back (WPB) option, or (b) some other 8x10 and getting Jody's WPB. If you plan on shooting a lot of wet plate, it is nice to have a dedicated WPB, I think. There have not been any surveys of which I'm aware, but anecdotal evidence indicates to me that converted film holders are more prone to "oyster" problems (silver moving from the back of the plate to the front, on top of the image). Of course there is another plausible explanation for the correlation: most users of converted film holders are relative novices in the method.

I'm virtually certain that with Jody's back you can obtain and use inserts to reduce the size of the plates to any size you want. I think that is true for almost all wet plate cameras. For example on my BAW I have inserts to shoot 8x10, 6.5x8.5 (whole plate), 5x7, 4x10, and 4x5.

Of my options, I trade between whole plate and 5x7 for people. I like 5x7 when the composition tends towards full body, and whole plate when it is a head shot or something else a bit tighter. I love the 4x10 for landscapes. Hard to say why I'm not a fan of 8x10 -- just ain't. Mostly aesthetic.

I've recently ordered a 16x20 Chamonix, with a 4x5 reducing back insert. I intend to use the 4x5 insert for test shots. Now that I got a Voigtlander 7, looks like I'll also use an 11x14.

Given that you want the option of shooting film, if you have the budget I'd suggest (can't recommend because I haven't used it yet) the Chamonix with WPB -- it has received good feedback from the couple of users I know that have one. It also has all the movements, which you may utilize for your landscape work. If budget is tight, I'd find a nice used 8x10 (with at least 7x7 lens board, if you can) film camera, and get Jody's WPB back with inserts. Then find a Ross Cabinet lens, which I think is as good as Dallmeyer and less expensive.

Lastly, I'm not sure I'd agree with Mark that weight is not a factor. If you want to shoot landscapes, as I also like to do on occasion, you'll need to be portable with your camera and dark box. On location wet plate shooting is tiring -- think light. In fact, I shoot people outside in my yard all the time and am picking up and moving my current camera and tripod (Majestic) around the yard.

Just my thoughts -- every wet plater has his and her own preferences, and I'm just expressing mine.

Thank you re my photos! Ed

PS, if you want the option to shoot at reenactments you'll want (need) to go the reproduction of traditional wet plate camera route, for authenticity.

[davehyams]

Yeah i would also suggest an actual wet plate camera, I am getting one from Steve & Black Art Woodcraft, but have dealt with both him and Ty and they are both awesome. I am pretty sure that the actual wet plate holders for their cameras will allow you to shoot 10X10 in plates, as the inner dimensions are square and the insert is all that rotates. Cameras that are designed for wet plate have several advantages over cameras designed for film and adapted for wet plate. A new wet plate back from jody ake is $400, and even if you get a decent deal on a kodak 2d at another $400, thats already a pretty big chunk of change, and not far off a hand built camera that is actually designed for the way you are using it. plus you don't have to play the game of trying to find a petzval lens that will cover 8X10 and still fit on a 6" lens board. If I could do it all over again, knowing what I know now, I would buy an actual wet plate camera from Steve or Ty, and a head brace stand from Claude right off the bat. Having the right equipment for the job is always a good thing, and it makes learning the process easier.

[goamules]

I find I shoot smaller plates than 8x10, but in 8x10 cameras with dedicated backs and converted holders. On wetplate backs versus converted holders I use both and find both work well. For me, the difference is in plate size. When I'm shooting larger plates, 5x7 and above, I like the stability an 8x10 studio camera with a wetplate back offers. If you are shooting portraits, a lot of petzvals are very large and heavy. As in several pounds and 4-5" diameter. There is less chance of a mistake with a wetplate back also, such as a plate slipping out, a darkslide wiping the wet emulsion, etc. However, these cameras and backs are larger, and need a bigger darkroom or large dark box.

For smaller plates, and outdoors work, I therefore like (as the name implies) a light 8x10 field camera, with converted holders. When Mark mentioned weight not being a factor, he just meant don't worry if your field camera is 5 or 8 lbs - you'll be carrying a lot more weight than that in the darkbox and chemicals. I've used converted plate and film holders for years, shooting hundreds of plates. I've never had an oyster or fogging problem with converted holders. I have had an occasional darkslide wipe or fallen plate, but that's just because my holders are not perfect, and handling all the wet plates is error-prone.

Both types are old, American cameras, such as Century, Eastman, Seneca, Rochester Optical, etc. I figure the original manufacturers had decades of experience, were selling hundreds of cameras a year (sometimes thousands), and had worked out all the bugs. You can buy an 8x10 Century studio or Kodak 2D for under $400, and a wooden plate holder for $20, and be shooting. The Chamonix may be great cameras too, I haven't used one. Expensive, custom, one-off cameras are not going to be any better than tried and true designs from the 1890s-1940s.

[goamules]

For really small, easy quarterplates, you can use a Speed Graphic or small 3x4 camera. Here is a plate I shot the other day, and I used an old Graflex Film Pack adapter as a wetplate holder. There are lots of options and costs, you can shoot plate in a system from $150 to $1500.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8051/8080070540_a2eb621265_c.jpg

[Tony Karnezis]

I agree with Garrett. You have many options at a range of price points. The first question is probably whether you will shoot wet plate exclusively or whether you want a camera that can shoot film as well. Once you know that, the choices will become more limited. The second question is what kinds of lenses you are considering, as this will guide your choice of camera or, more specifically, lens board size.

I started out using film, hence my recommendation of the Kodak Master. If weight isn't a big deal to you, one option within the film camera realm is to buy an inexpensive monorail. I have a Sinar P, but I almost always reach for the Kodak (which is why I'm going to sell the Sinar).

To answer your other question, I don't remember what I paid for the Kodak. I bought it 8 years ago after taking a workshop with Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee (they were nice enough to sell me one of their cameras). Like you, I haven't seen them for sale very often. As for workshops, Kerik did a one-on-one workshop at his house. I highly recommend it. Not only will you be able to get up to speed immediately, but Kerik is a wonderful person, and the surrounding areas within 30 minutes (wineries) or a few hours (Lake Tahoe, Yosemite, Mono Lake) are beautiful.

[T.G.]

I've got these in the works. A modern field 8x10 plate camera. Everything beefed up a bit for the large lenses as well as the plates. Large 7" lensboard. These images are just sort of a sneak peek. I've still got to do the finish work. I'm doing three right now.
82472824738247482475

[Jon_2416]

Wow, so much info. I'm mentally processing... I really like the idea of the Kodak Master View, but some of these wood cameras are just stunning. Tony K. told me about a great one-on-one he took with Kerik K. and sent me this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-SuKqtH5KQ

I'm sure many of you know about this, but I just discovered the FaceBook Wet Plate Collodion Group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/44113752162/

A lot of people just starting out and other more accomplished users. Nice to see people with new work on a daily basis.

I'll have some more questions soon, this thread is great!

Jon
www.jonwitsell.com

[Jon_2416]

Hi T.G.,

Nice camera. I didn't see or missed pricing on your website. What does one of those babys run?

Jon

[T.G.]

P.M.ed.

[Jon_2416]

I don't know if you all have seen this, but it looks like a gorgeous book:

http://www.oldphotographiclenses.com/

Jon