portrait lens for 16x20 direct positive camera project?

[gambaphoto]

I have this project in mind to use Harman Direct Positive paper to shoot portraits hopefully using a 16x20 camera that I yet to find or make. I am starting small first, testing out the idea on my Crown Graphics 2x3 cutting some 4x5 paper to fit so I should have plenty of test for very little cost. If it works the way I am planning, I would really like to put the 16x20 plan into effect. I have never shot anything larger then 8x10 so when it comes to lenses I am out of my knowledge base so I am hoping you could help shine some light. The framing I am looking for in these portraits is that of using a 35mm to 50mm lens on 35mm format. My subject will I think be as close as 10 to 20 feet from the camera to get that full standing to 3/4 shot with a shallow depth of field. I think I am looking for a 600mm 24 inch lens but what about 500mm or 480mm? It seems that its not just the mm/inch of the lens but rather more importantly the image circle it provides. I would think that with my subject at close range and the front standard being farther away (2 feet?) I should gain some image circle diameter? Again I have no plans on making this lens focus to infinity and I would like to keep that aperture under f16. Any thoughts, information and or help that you could pass my way will be greatly appreciated. And yes I am aware this like a lazy/poor man's wet plate, thats the idea. little steps.
thanks
Paul

[benrains]

I've successfully used a Zeiss APO-Tessar 450mm f/9 lens on my 16x20 camera for indoor work. The corners aren't sharp, but the coverage was just fine. And I'd say any of the longer Zeiss APO Tessars (450/9, 600/9, 640/10, or 750/9) would be good for your use. The 450 gives you something that's roughly equivalent to a 28-30mm lens on a 35mm full frame camera, so it's a bit wide for portraits. (If you compare diagonals of the 35mm frame size to that of 16x20 it comes out around a 1:15 ratio.) Other lenses that work well but tend to be more expensive are the E. Krauss 50cm/6.3 Tessar, the B&L Tessar IIb 14x17 (~500mm f/6.3), and the Kodak Portrait 405mm/4.5.

[gambaphoto]

Ben, thanks for the post, this helps a lot. is it crazy to think that there could be a shutter for one of these lenses? it seems that the 600/9 has a 89mm diameter which is 3.5 inches so a packard? is there a copal that would fit this? I have already started the hunt for these lenses and my first test should be started over the weekend. Thanks again for your help.

[jnantz]

I have this project in mind to use Harman Direct Positive paper to shoot portraits hopefully using a 16x20 camera that I yet to find or make. I am starting small first, testing out the idea on my Crown Graphics 2x3 cutting some 4x5 paper to fit so I should have plenty of test for very little cost. If it works the way I am planning, I would really like to put the 16x20 plan into effect. I have never shot anything larger then 8x10 so when it comes to lenses I am out of my knowledge base so I am hoping you could help shine some light. The framing I am looking for in these portraits is that of using a 35mm to 50mm lens on 35mm format. My subject will I think be as close as 10 to 20 feet from the camera to get that full standing to 3/4 shot with a shallow depth of field. I think I am looking for a 600mm 24 inch lens but what about 500mm or 480mm? It seems that its not just the mm/inch of the lens but rather more importantly the image circle it provides. I would think that with my subject at close range and the front standard being farther away (2 feet?) I should gain some image circle diameter? Again I have no plans on making this lens focus to infinity and I would like to keep that aperture under f16. Any thoughts, information and or help that you could pass my way will be greatly appreciated. And yes I am aware this like a lazy/poor man's wet plate, thats the idea. little steps.
thanks
Paul

why don't you get one of these lenses
http://re-inventedphotoequip.com/Site/Lenses.html
from all reports they are pretty amazing, and very affordable.


have fun !

john

ps they are made by a member of this forum :)

[benrains]

Ben, thanks for the post, this helps a lot. is it crazy to think that there could be a shutter for one of these lenses? it seems that the 600/9 has a 89mm diameter which is 3.5 inches so a packard? is there a copal that would fit this? I have already started the hunt for these lenses and my first test should be started over the weekend. Thanks again for your help.

You might be able to adapt the Zeiss Tessar 450/9 to one of the larger Compound or Ilex shutter, or maybe a Copal 3. Given the slow speed of Harman's direct positive films, I can't imagine you'll need a very sophisticated shutter--just something to cover the front of the lens that you can remove and replace by hand should be fine. If you want to get fancy, a Packard shutter would be a good choice.

I don't know whether it'll cover 16x20 or not at close distances, but you might check out the Ronar 480/9. I know those can be gotten mounted in Copal 3 shutters.

[DolphinDan]

Hi Paul,

Not sure which lenses will cover 16x20 at f16, but I find that the Nikon NIKKOR-M 450mm f9 and Fuji FUJINON-C 600mm f11.5 (https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=176) cover my 16x20 camera when focussing at close range (<15 feet). A former 16x20 shooter told me that the Schneider APO-SYMMAR-L 480mm f8.4 lens (https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=242) covers 16x20. And of course if you are rich, then you can always get the Schneider Fine Art XXL 550mm f11 lens (https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=251).

I also understand that the Red Dot Artar 30" and 35" lenses will cover 16x20. Look on eBay or GlennView Cameras (http://www.glennview.com/lens.htm) or the For Sale section of this forum for these lenses.

For shutters try LensN2Shutter (http://lensn2shutter.com/shutters.html#link1).

MAMUT Photo (http://www.mamutphoto.com/) had a list of lenses with image circles that covered ULF, but their website is not opening in my web browsers anymore :-(

Hope this helps...

Namaste
Daniel

[gambaphoto]

Dan,
thanks for all the info, I think we are on to something here.
Ben, again thanks for all your help, I've contacted my local camera repair and have asked him about some adaptations

[gambaphoto]

Thanks again for all your help everyone. I did get a chance this weekend to do my first test using my 2x3. Well I learned that I completely fogged all my paper in the darkroom cutting down the 4x5 sheets to 2x3. The exposures here barely visible. At first I thought it was the developer being off temp, so I warmed it back up to temp and tried the second exposure and the same result. I then tried a sheet of uncut paper that although was out while I was cutting the others was in the middle of the stack and there it was complete black. So then I very quickly took another sheet from the stack and tried to cut it again in almost no light at all (using a kodak safe light but I think the bulb is to bright) and ran out side and tried again. This time the exposure showed itself within 30 seconds but seemed underexposed and then I think quickly became over developed. And the second exposure seemed to be fogged again but no nearly as bad as the first ones. in fact this one was the closest to what I expected and I think shows that this paper needs to be pre flashed. I handheld ambient metered for direct bright sun light on the face at f16 1/15sec at iso12 and opened 2 stops to correct for iso3 rating on the paper so the final exposure was actually f8 1/10sec and I think I was still dark about 2 stops before I over developed it. I didn't correct for any reciprocity because the this was only a 2x3 crown graphix and the bellows was typical at only 5 inches but maybe I should? So I'll order a new box of paper and try again. I think I might only load one side of the film holder to make sure I'm not getting any fogging from the first exposure and I'll find a way to cut this paper in complete darkness (good luck with that). I think I close. I'm a bit deflated but I'm ready to try again.

[Graybeard]

There is a 42" Artar on eBay now.

[gambaphoto]

Graybeard,
thanks for looking out for me. I just picked this up the other day on ebay and its on its way I can't wait. Once its here I can start building the camera based on the image circle.
80889

[Emil Schildt]

I have done portraits with a 540 (iirc) F8 Hermagis aplanat with nice results. (each image is 40x50cm (16x20))

Attached some examples.

(too late I know...)

[gambaphoto]

gandolfi, these are great! thats the look I'm after. It good to hear that you did it with a 540 it makes me feel better about the 600 hoping it covers. now I just need the 16x20 camera and film holders.

[SergeiR]

Graybeard,
thanks for looking out for me. I just picked this up the other day on ebay and its on its way I can't wait. Once its here I can start building the camera based on the image circle.
80889

grrrrrrr :) (i was bidding on it too)