Ansel Adams Quote?

[Two23]

I remember reading several times that someone once said to St. Ansel: "There is nothing worth photo'ing that's more than 30 ft. from the car." Who was it that said that?



Kent in SD

[chassis]

Are you thinking of this:

“Anything more than 500 yards from the car just isn’t photogenic.” -Edward Weston

from http://photofocus.com/2011/05/12/my-20-favorite-photography-quotes/

I am not vouching for the accuracy of the website or the quote.

[Two23]

That's the one! I couldn't remember the exact wording.


Kent in SD

[Mark Barendt]

I like it!

[Vaughn]

A good discussion on this...

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?73059-There%E2%80%99s-nothing-photogenic-far-from-your-vehicle-%E2%80%95-why-search

In typical LFPF fashion, the discussion wanders a bit!

Vaughn

[Darin Boville]

That's funny. I remember the quote but thought this distance was less... :(

--Darin

[Shen45]

I always thought it was 100 yards. But I'm now getting older and much more lazy, or is that discerning? The distance is often governed by the proximity of a place to park the car.

[dsphotog]

I always thought it was 100 yards. But I'm now getting older and much more lazy, or is that discerning? The distance is often governed by the proximity of a place to park the car.

I also factor in steepness of the required hike. That helps determine the size camera.

[Darin Boville]

You know, the more I think about it the more I think the "500 yards" is wrong. I remember it as a much smaller distance--essentially close to the car. The point was that the time spent messing around hiking up a trail or whatever could be put to more productive use shooting something else, easier to get to.

So...anyone have source for the quote?

--Darin

[Joe Smigiel]

"'Anything more than 500 yds from the car just isn't photogenic.' - Brett Weston - Attributed to Brett Weston referring to working with a 10 x 8 view camera. In an interview with David Graham in July 1989 View Camera magazine."

from:http://www.photoquotes.com/showquotes.aspx?id=50&name=Weston,Brett

[BrianShaw]

I'm not sure it matters which Weston said it... it's the truth and that's all that matters to me! *






* With reference to view cameras only. Not applicable to other imaging instruments or systems.

[William McEwen]

"If you can't drive to it, screw it." - Huntington Witherill.

[Vaughn]

"Further" -- Vaughn

[Drew Wiley]

How does that formula work in official roadless areas? ... I mean, I thought the whole idea
is to GET AWAY from the damn road!

[Mark Barendt]

Roadless areas are thankfully being preserved for future generations, rather than for me. ;)

[bigdog]

How does that formula work in official roadless areas? ...

If it's more than 500 yards from wherever you had to park your car ... ;)

[BrianShaw]

I mean, I thought the whole idea is to GET AWAY from the damn road!

Some of my best work includes a road.

[BrianShaw]

"Further" -- Vaughn

"Farther?????" -- Brian

[Vaughn]

further
adv
1. in addition; furthermore
2. to a greater degree or extent
3. to or at a more advanced point
4. to or at a greater distance in time or space; farther
adj
1. additional; more
2. more distant or remote in time or space; farther
vb
(tr) to assist the progress of; promote See also far, furthest

(I prefer it to farther as it implies more than just physical distance...)

or

Ken Kesey's bus: (photo is of the second of Kesey's buses of the same name)

[Drew Wiley]

Vaughn - we should organize a snipe hunt just for large format forum members. Each one will get a grounglass loupe with a little hole in it to
function as a whistle, then instead of a stick, a wooden tripod leg, and
a large old bellows instead of a burlap bag. The digital crowd would of
course be allowed to use a GPS device, provided the coordinates were
fictitious.

[Kirk Gittings]

Favorite AA quote, "ahhhh crap-I forgot to close the shutter". What LF photographer hasn't said it?

[Darin Boville]

"If you can't drive to it, screw it." - Huntington Witherill.

Are you sure that wasn't a line from "Blue Velvet"?

--Darin

[BrianShaw]

(I prefer it [further] to farther as it implies more than just physical distance...)


I understand you entirely. I actually use both terms, with differences of inflection, depending on if I see good images at a distance from the car... or if I'm tired from carrying gear to that more distant location. Your quote of "Further" is often said to me with excitement whereas my quote of "Farther?????" is often said in dispair. :)

[Vaughn]

Vaughn - we should organize a snipe hunt just for large format forum members...

If you have been on a snipe hunt raise your hand!

We also use to send out the new members of the Scout troop to ask other campers for bacon stretchers and left-handed smoke-shifters.

[Drew Wiley]

O Gosh, Vaughn, we've got an REI store about eight blocks away. I've repeatedly sent people there for dehydrated water for their first backpack trip. I know people who work
there, and yes, they do ask for it!

[ROL]

We also use to send out the new members of the Scout troop to ask other campers for bacon stretchers and left-handed smoke-shifters.

The best advice is to always bring your own – Be Prepared.

[ROL]

O Gosh, Vaughn, we've got an REI store about eight blocks away. I've repeatedly sent people there for dehydrated water for their first backpack trip. I know people who work
there, and yes, they do ask for it!

Doesn't everybody have an REI eight blocks away? Just not the same since having to save my pennies for a mail order from Seattle.


http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/SupportPics/LFPF/REICatalog/REICover1969.jpghttp://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/SupportPics/LFPF/REICatalog/REIPage91969.jpg

Reminds me, I need to order a new set of lederhosen.

[Andrew O'Neill]

“Anything more than 500 yards from the car just isn’t photogenic.” -Edward Weston

Okay. But, what if you drive that 500 yards??

[Vaughn]

Doesn't everybody have an REI eight blocks away? Just not the same since having to save my pennies for a mail order from Seattle.

Reminds me, I need to order a new set of lederhosen.

I wore a pair of lederhosen for backpacking for years in the Sierras (late 60's through the 70's) -- eventually the sweat off my back ate the leather. But they were great -- never had to worry about wearing out the butt. I did not wear the suspenders, though. I have another pair, but have not worn them. I should just to embarass my boys.

Vaughn

[Brian C. Miller]

Favorite AA quote, "ahhhh crap-I forgot to close the shutter". What LF photographer hasn't said it?

Clint Eastwood does LF: "Did I forget to pull the dark slide? Did I? Do I feel lucky? Huh? Do I?"

[J. Fada]

I agree with the Weston quote, whichever one said it, but that is also why Jeeps exist.:D

[David Lobato]

Adams was willing to go much farther than a several yards from the road. There is a photo of Ansel's camera gear on a pack mule many miles into the Sierra backcountry. It was on top of a pass I think. He would be out there for days in the Sierras. He did some serious hiking with his camera equipment. Imagine the campfire stories he had.

Here's one photo after a quick google search.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/ansel/sfeature/sf_packing.html

[Bill_1856]

Adams was willing to go much farther than a several yards from the road. There is a photo of Ansel's camera gear on a pack mule many miles into the Sierra backcountry. It was on top of a pass I think. He would be out there for days in the Sierras. He did some serious hiking with his camera equipment. Imagine the campfire stories he had.

Here's one photo after a quick google search.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/ansel/sfeature/sf_packing.html

Yes, but all but one or two of his "greatest" images were made while parked by the roadside (Moonrise, Mt Williamson...) or very near the car (Aspins, Clearing Winter Storm...). Half-Dome from the Diving Board is an exception.

[ROL]

Adams was willing to go much farther than a several yards from the road. There is a photo of Ansel's camera gear on a pack mule many miles into the Sierra backcountry. It was on top of a pass I think. He would be out there for days in the Sierras. He did some serious hiking with his camera equipment. Imagine the campfire stories he had.

Here's one photo after a quick google search.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/ansel/sfeature/sf_packing.html

I believe that is Kearsarge Pass, something like 4 miles from the present Onion Valley trailhead. But yes, he went much farther (further? :rolleyes:) into the backcountry. Don't imagine. Read about the man in his own autobiography, "Letters..." or these oral transcriptions (http://archive.org/details/convanseladams00adamrich).


I too, have gone very deep into the Sierra backcountry with both MF and LF. I have found that, absent specific atmospheric and/or late snow conditions, obtaining meaningful, compelling, monochrome compositions to be quite difficult at high elevation, above say 9 or 10K. The relatively harsh quality of light and general tonality of the landscape can frequently be fairly uninspiring. I would be lucky to get 4 or 5 decent fine art prints out of week's journey, while shooting "near the road" (i.e., lower elevations) nearly always produced many more good images, by my standards.


Banner Peak Clearing, Island Pass
http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/albums/Ansel-Adams-Wilderness/Banner%20Peak%20Clearing%2C%20Island%20Pass.jpg

[Vaughn]

And Adams took Weston and Charis up to into the high Sierras (Minarets). Such quotes are fun and are not to be taken too seriously.

[BrianShaw]

And Adams took Weston and Charis up to into the high Sierras (Minarets). Such quotes are fun and are not to be taken too seriously.

... and should certainly be taken within context. For example, I don't go much further/farther than my trunk, and haven't for a long time... but once upon a time I thought nothing of packing camera gear into deep wilderness. Times change but the written word remains the same. My diaries of 30 years ago no longer apply to my current lifestyle, nor do they do a very good job at expressing the "lifetime average" of my experience and beliefs.

[Heroique]

Such quotes are fun and are not to be taken too seriously.


…and should certainly be taken within context.

I strenuously (but respectfully) disagree w/ both of you.

I think this thread is fun because the quote has been taken seriously & out of context.

:rolleyes:

[Vaughn]

... ;)

[Drew Wiley]

AA did a great many LF shots deep into Sierra backcountry. Examples of a good workout
would include Milestone Basin on the upper Kern and Marion Lake, and the famous shot
of what would later be named Mt Ansel Adams on the headwaters of the Merced. Kearsarge Pass or Thousand Island Lake are a casual mosey compared to those hikes.
I find it ironic that he gave up on the backpack at just about the same age I began carrying LF in one. Afterwards he used a mule, often shooting in spare moments during oversight of huge Sierra Club convoys along the Muir Trail etc (sure not my cup of tea).
I don't think his chain-smoking helped much. I have one of the classic coffee-table books
called Yosemite and the High Sierra. At least half those shots were a serious distance from
any road, possibly a couple weeks worth in a few cases.

[Darin Boville]

>>At least half those shots were a serious distance from
any road, possibly a couple weeks worth in a few cases.<<

True, of course, but I think an earlier post limited the claim to Ansel's most famous images. How do we define most famous or most iconic? Let's let the AA publishing Trust do it for us and limit our discussion just to what has been published on those $20 posters (with amazing quality for posters, I must admit). How many of *those* images required any sort of serious hike? We know Monolith did--which other ones?

Edit: Here is a link to the posters at the AA Gallery: http://www.anseladams.com/category_s/9.htm

--Darin

[Drew Wiley]

Oh let's get silly technical about this ... lawyer-speak style, and just limit it to those four
shots Ansel took modeling lederhosen while shooting behind a Kodak Medalist with three
West Australian parakeets resting on top the bellows in front of the Ahwanee Hotel on a
Spring equinox. That should definitely rule out the possibility of his going any significant
distance from the road, for those of you who are not so subtly trying to justify your own
roadbound shooting habits.

[Vaughn]

I think I'll make a new rule for myself -- to take no photos farther than three beers away from the car...unless I roll a big one first, then who knows how far out I'll get.

[Mark Barendt]

Vaughn,

That seems like a sensible rule. For it to be meaningful though you'd have to carry at least three beers.

[Vaughn]

The secret is to take Stouts or Porters that still taste great warm -- and one can pour them into quart water bottles to save weight!

[Darin Boville]

Oh let's get silly technical about this ... lawyer-speak style, and just limit it to those four
shots Ansel took modeling lederhosen while shooting behind a Kodak Medalist with three
West Australian parakeets resting on top the bellows in front of the Ahwanee Hotel on a
Spring equinox. That should definitely rule out the possibility of his going any significant
distance from the road, for those of you who are not so subtly trying to justify your own
roadbound shooting habits.

I don't really shoot much in the way of landscapes anyway so I'll let you guys worry about the road. But the little rule about the AA posters is not silly at all. The whole *point* of the quote is, if I can paraphrase Edward Weston, is that if you spend time too much time *here* (hiking through the mountains) you'll likely miss more and better images *there* (down the road, near the car). So you really do want to know what proportion of a photographer's best images were made near the car and which were not. My metric of using the Ansel Adams Publishing Trust's poster selections is rather crude, I admit, but it is certainly not silly and strikes right at the heart of the meaning of the quote. :)

--Darin

[Drew Wiley]

OK Darin, let's put it this way ... I pick up that famous coffee-table book I earlier referred to, which was put together with images Ansel picked out while he was still alive - one of
the best and last in which he was directly invoved - images which he personally considered
important and reminisced about, and involved many memorable summers of his lifetime ....
... or I look at a mere handful of posters sold in a Tourist Trap in Yosemite to guess what tourists in Yosemite?

[Drew Wiley]

Vaughn - among my younger set apprentice backpackers there's a fellow who was into
microbrew - local north coast good stuff. First summer's lesson (easy 30-miler in Emigrant
Wilderness over three days) - lesson learned, don't carry cases of BOTTLED beer in your
pack! Second year: now he brings beer in alum cans. But it's a bit more ambitious this
time with a couple of 12000 ft passes. Lesson learned? This summer I bet he'll leave the
beer behind.

[Drew Wiley]

Oh one more punch to the gut, Darin .... Kings Canyon Natl Park probably wouldn't exist if
it weren't for AA's large formats shots of it, which were "famous enough" to get an act of
Congress. Now anyone who knows much about this particular park knows that nearly the
entire thing is roadless. Only a tiny bit of Cedar Grove - everything else is backcountry.
I think the entire heyday of the conservation movement would raise an eyebrow over the
notion that AA did most of his important work from a road. He didn't get a mountain or a
significant wilderness area named for him because he was just a photographer! And that
wilderness happens to be outside Yosemite, and is itself obviously roadless.

[Dan Henderson]

Speaking of quotes, does anyone know the origin of a quote that goes something like, "whatever you do, don't take up photography. It will ruin your life." I thought that it was attributed to Hurter or Driffeld, but I have been unable to locate it.

[Darin Boville]

Oh one more punch to the gut, Darin .... Kings Canyon Natl Park probably wouldn't exist if
it weren't for AA's large formats shots of it, which were "famous enough" to get an act of
Congress. Now anyone who knows much about this particular park knows that nearly the
entire thing is roadless. Only a tiny bit of Cedar Grove - everything else is backcountry.
I think the entire heyday of the conservation movement would raise an eyebrow over the
notion that AA did most of his important work from a road. He didn't get a mountain or a
significant wilderness area named for him because he was just a photographer! And that
wilderness happens to be outside Yosemite, and is itself obviously roadless.

Missed, I'm afraid. :) Didn't even feel the wind. How about the Examples book? How about the Portfolios? Those would be better metrics than the Range of Light. I haven't looked at them recently so even better.

I thought you were the expert on everything, Drew. Your study design is pretty crappy. :)

--Darin

[John Rodriguez]

My father in law (retired chief scientist of Yosemite NP) seeds all of our backpacking routes with hidden cases of beer during the weeks before a trip. He likes to surprise people by pulling them out of the bushes out in the middle of nowhere.

[Drew Wiley]

Guess you still don't get it, Darin. Just last wk the local PBS channel (9)
reran a classic documentary about the American wilderness movement,
with lots of stuff about David Brower and AA, who was right at the heart
of the whole thing. Maybe you should study up on the man himself and you might get an idea of where he spent a lot of time doing photography. It wasn't just Yos Valley. This guy took a LOT of iconic images all kinds of
places. Or are you just sore because you didn't get your invitation to the
snipe hunt yet? We'll even let you carry the beer over Taboose Pass.

[Darin Boville]

Guess you still don't get it, Darin. Just last wk the local PBS channel (9)
reran a classic documentary about the American wilderness movement,
with lots of stuff about David Brower and AA, who was right at the heart
of the whole thing. Maybe you should study up on the man himself and you might get an idea of where he spent a lot of time doing photography. It wasn't just Yos Valley. This guy took a LOT of iconic images all kinds of
places. Or are you just sore because you didn't get your invitation to the
snipe hunt yet? We'll even let you carry the beer over Taboose Pass.

I know perfectly well who David Brower was and all about Ansel. I was something of an Ansel nut growing up and I'm a good student. :) Did Ansel really photograph in "all kinds of places"? You must tell me more!

--Darin

[Vaughn]

My father in law (retired chief scientist of Yosemite NP) seeds all of our backpacking routes with hidden cases of beer during the weeks before a trip. He likes to surprise people by pulling them out of the bushes out in the middle of nowhere.

During my ten years as a wilderness ranger/trail builder I did not take any beer into the wilderness -- even though I had a string of mules to carry the food and gear. It was against Forest Service rules to have any alcohol in gov't vehicals. But I usually brought a bottle of rattlesnake medicine...made by a fellow named Jack, I believe, though there was another type made by a gentleman named Jim. A few sips around the fire after a full day of pick-axe and crosscut-saw work worked wonders. And worked well it did -- I never got bit by a rattlesnake!

It was a friend and fellow photographer (and ex-curator at the Ansel Adams Gallery) that showed me the stout-in-the-water-bottle technique on a hike from the Wawona Tunnel to Glacier Point one Spring...perhaps twenty years ago. For lower elevation trips, the new microbrews in cans are a marverous invention...hovering around 7%...perfect for my annual backpack trip up Redwood Creek.

An old girlfriend of mine told me of finding an occasional can of beer in the eddies below the major rapids in the Grand Canyon -- from flipped over rafts.

[Drew Wiley]

Vauhn - not exactly backcountry, but you probably remember back when Warren Harding
took a month to climb the dawn wall on El Cap and bragged how he lived on only a pint of
water of day doing it. Then Royal Robbins went up and chopped all the bolts, end of story.
So then nobody climbed the thing again till my nephew and his crazy buddy did it as
teenagers. There is only one ledge the whole way one can actually sit on, and above this
a long running crack. There were dozens of wine bottles stuffed in the crack, some still
unopened. So I guess ole Warren did use less than a pint of water a day.

[Vaughn]

Yep -- beer and wine is just fortified water.

I have to admit that my knowledge of climbing is lacking, having never been too keen on the sport (limited to one rope climb locally in which we did not even know enough to tie our belayer on top to anything). I have always been a big guy -- 6'4" and about 190 to 210 in my prime. Not really built for climbing or biking.

But I did find this in Wiki...(after finding out that you were not referring to our 29th President...)

Harding also made a much-publicised first ascent of the "Wall of the Early Morning Light", up the tallest portion of El Capitan in its southeast side. With Dean Caldwell, he spent 27 nights on the wall, living mostly in tented hammocks designed in coordination with Roger Derryberry. When a 4-day storm rolled in, the National Park Service decided, after 22 days, that the two needed to be rescued. Ropes were lowered, but after much shouting back and forth, retracted. Harding, in his book Downward Bound, recounts what might have happened had the rescue persisted:

"Good Evening! What can we do for you."
"We've come to rescue you!"
"Really? Come now, get hold of yourselves - have some wine."[13]

Sort of reminds me when a lifeguard tried to rescue me once while body-surfing in SoCal as a kid. After whacking me in the nose with his red float, I informed him that I did not need rescuing, that my dad was just 20 yds away and that I have waves to ride, thank you very much.

Vaughn

[Drew Wiley]

Our own story gets pretty nutty too. Just before the kids left I gave them a big lecture
about hauling up plenty of extra food and water. But when they got to the top of the
dawn wall twenty days later they were both sunburned to bits. Turns out they had only
hauled about ten days of TP, so ended up shredding T-shirts and pants legs. They never
made that mistake again.

[ROL]

Boy, has this thread gone awry, again. Still, I'm enjoying it nonetheless, as the OP's initial title and assertions are incorrect to begin with.

Really folks, unless a source for a quote or any particular relationships with any of the personalities has been provided, anyone reading the above should take any specific information proffered with a grain of salt.


Oh one more punch to the gut, Darin .... Kings Canyon Natl Park probably wouldn't exist if
it weren't for AA's large formats shots of it, which were "famous enough" to get an act of
Congress. Now anyone who knows much about this particular park knows that nearly the
entire thing is roadless. Only a tiny bit of Cedar Grove - everything else is backcountry.
I think the entire heyday of the conservation movement would raise an eyebrow over the
notion that AA did most of his important work from a road. He didn't get a mountain or a
significant wilderness area named for him because he was just a photographer! And that
wilderness happens to be outside Yosemite, and is itself obviously roadless.

Though it pains me to agree with Drew, as it is unnecessary and he is totally capable of agreeing with himself ;), this is the reason I implore people to read firsthand about the man and his accomplishments – photographically, artistically, business, and conservation. Whether you agree with or even like his style or subject matter, he was directly responsible for much of what we take for granted today in terms of photographic technique, acceptance of photography as fine art, and the conservation movement. Kings Canyon is the only national park conceived as roadless backcountry. It owes its establishment by FDR and congress to Adam's seminal work, Sierra Nevada, The John Muir Trail (recently republished in 2006).


In order to assuage the above transgression I offer the following correction:


Then Royal Robbins went up and chopped all the bolts, end of story.

Not end of story. RR was famously repentant about his actions on the second ascent of the Dawn Wall, stating sometime later that the bolt chopping was a mistake, if not totally then in the extreme to which he took it, adding that it was a beautiful line, justified by the means used to climb it.



...living mostly in tented hammocks designed in coordination with Roger Derryberry.

Those "tented hammocks" (some of the first ever designed) were actually enclosed urethane coated single anchor nylon hammocks with single zippered opening. They were part of Warren and Roger's line of B.A.T. (Basically Absurd Technique - a takeoff on Chouinard's RURP) climbing gear, "Bat Tents", made by the (now defunct) company I worked for at the time. They leaked from the zipper, pooled water in the impervious bottom, and handled condensation so poorly that Warren dubbed them "Bat Tubs". I still have mine.

For anyone reading this that doesn't have a clue what's going on. From the absurdist climbing magazine Descent:


Harding (L) and Caldwell:
http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/SupportPics/LFPF/DescentMagazine/DescentHardingCaldwell.jpg

Roger Derryberry (in his Royal Robbins superman attire):
http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/SupportPics/LFPF/DescentMagazine/DescentMagCover.jpg

I'm warning you. Don't force me to post any more old magazines. :eek:

[Vaughn]

Those "tented hammocks" (some of the first ever designed) were actually enclosed urethane coated single anchor nylon hammocks with single zippered opening. They were part of Warren and Roger's line of B.A.T. (Basically Absurd Technique - a takeoff on Chouinard's RURP) climbing gear, "Bat Tents", made by the (now defunct) company I worked for at the time. They leaked from the zipper, pooled water in the impervious bottom, and handled condensation so poorly that Warren dubbed them "Bat Tubs". I still have mine.


Reminds me somewhat of the "tube tents" we used in the Boy Scouts for backpacking in the 60's! Of course, tube tents were not as sophisticated as to have zippers (a few clothes pins worked), just a tube of clear plastic one strung a line though between trees. :)

[Darin Boville]

Boy, has this thread gone awry, again. ..... Kings Canyon is the only national park conceived as roadless backcountry. It owes its establishment by FDR and congress to Adam's seminal work, Sierra Nevada, The John Muir Trail (recently republished in 2006).

There's a sort of founding mythology in every field, much of it passed around in a sort of oral tradition (even when it is on the internet). I'm still convinced that the Ansel quote mention above--the topic of this thread!--isn't quite right. The "Ansel founded the national parks" sort of claim forms part of that mythology. You'd get the impression that Ansel sent a few picts over the Congress one day and then they said, "Well, shucks, that decides it! Look at dem pretty pictures!"

The real story on this (as on all legislation) is much more complicated. Here's what appears to be a great history of Sequoia-Kings Canyon's founding. Ansel is not mentioned as far as I can see.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/dilsaver-tweed/

Of course Ansel played a role, and an important one, both as a photographer and as a environmentalist. But I doubt he had anything quite like the god-like influence that many here think. If you want to claim otherwise I only request that you cite your sources...

--Darin

[Heroique]

The Sierra Club has its version of conservation history, too, just like everyone else:

“Adams lobbied Congress for a Kings Canyon National Park, the [Sierra] Club’s priority issue in the 1930’s, and created an impressive, limited-edition book, Sierra Nevada: The John Muir Trail, which influenced both Interior Secretary Harold Ickes and President Franklin Roosevelt to embrace the Kings Canyon Park idea. The park was created in 1940.”

Moreover, the article reminds us that AA was elected in 1934 to the Sierra Club’s Board of Directors, a position he held for 37 years.

(Source: The Sierra Club’s History Page (http://www.sierraclub.org/history/ansel-adams/) about AA.)

Below AA cooks-up something delicious, probably a serving of 8x10 film. ;)

[Darin Boville]

That's based on Ansel's autobiography. Ansel went to DC for a few days and showed his prints around and where he met Ikes. . Then the guy commissioned John Muir Trail book to honor his dead son. Ansel mails a copy of the book to Ikes who responds with a perfunctory three sentence sort of "thank you"--Ikes also mentions that he hopes to pass the Kings bill *that session.* But later Ikes shows the president the book and when Ansel hears about it he send one to the White House, too.

AA's Letters book has the Ikes letter and the ones from Ansel talking about his lobbying.

It sure doesn't sound like Adams was a dominant influence. Read the park historian book, chapter seven...

--Darin



The Sierra Club has its version of conservation history, too, just like everyone else:

“Adams lobbied Congress for a Kings Canyon National Park, the [Sierra] Club’s priority issue in the 1930’s, and created an impressive, limited-edition book, Sierra Nevada: The John Muir Trail, which influenced both Interior Secretary Harold Ickes and President Franklin Roosevelt to embrace the Kings Canyon Park idea. The park was created in 1940.”

Moreover, the article reminds us that AA was elected in 1934 to the Sierra Club’s Board of Directors, a position he held for 37 years.

(Source: The Sierra Club’s History Page (http://www.sierraclub.org/history/ansel-adams/) about AA.)

Below AA cooks-up something delicious, probably a serving of 8x10 film. ;)

[Drew Wiley]

Keep in mind that hardly anyone involved knew what Kings Canyon country looked like. This
wasn't like Yellowstone or Yosemite, and even today is 99% wilderness, much of it without
any trails whatsoever. And there was a fair amt of opposition to new parks then, just as now. Just how do you think people in power had any clue what they were considering.
The pictures were influential. And there were some classic images, like that of Mt Winchell.
This success helped set the trend for picture books as propaganda for these kinds of causes. Ironically, it was the cost of these books in color that was one factor in the eventual rift between AA and Brower. I've always wondered if AA was a bit jealous of the
dominance Eliot Porter's own work was obtaining during this era.

[Drew Wiley]

Yes I remember those bat bags hanging from the wall, and how when the ordeal was over,
the first thing Warren's climbing partner said to him at the top was that he smelled like a
dead rhinoceros. ... But back to AA's images ... they weren't just put in a book. Ickes ordered up a bunch of mural-sized ones for decor in the Interior Dept (different scenes,
and not necessarily Kings Can material). Some of the locals had ridden back into Evolution
Valley for decades, and the Muir Trail was getting pretty well known, but the idea of a
Park of sheer wilderness without concession or facilities or road or rail acess - well that was pretty gutsy and revolutionary thinking. And it's why Kings Can is perhaps my favorite
of all the Natl Parks. But there were lots of places in there I'm certain AA never got to.
I remember climbing Goddard Divide three times just to get the lighting right with my Sinar.
The sucessful time I spent the night on a tiny ledge, with just enough room for the
tripod itself to be set up.

[Drew Wiley]

Back to Darin - just look up the Natl Archive for the AA Kings pictures. These things were
classics. It was a well targeted effort. Of course, the whole point of lobbying is to make
the big shots at the top look good, so they get political and PR Brownie points out of it. And then afterwards, you can toot your own horn, which the Sierra Club did plenty of. But that's the way the system works. Backcountry prints were also among those which got Stieglitz's attention in the first place, when AA was just a whippersnapper himself.

[Preston]

Just a side note, here...

Warren Harding's BAT was an acronym for Basically Absurd Technology. The BAT tent was pretty extreme for it's day, and was a model for single point suspension big wall bivvy gear.

It's true that Royal Robbins and Don Lauria went up to erase the Dawn Wall, and they finally quit chopping bolts. They both realized that the route was ahead of its time, but the whole episode brought the bolting controversy to a head.

Further aside: I heard the whole story of the Dawn Wall climb from Dean Caldwell himself while the two of us were waiting out bad ice conditions and howling winds on the glacier below the West Face of Nevado Yerupaja in 1975. Dean remarked how great a visionary Harding really was, and also that Harding did things that someone paralyzed by fear could scarcely imagine. I never met Warren, as he had left Yosemite when I was climbing there later into the seventies.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

--P

[Drew Wiley]

Thanks Preston. But I surrender and am going to play by Darin's own rules. I looked up the
limited selection of famous matted reproductions avail at the AA gallery, and there were
actually quite a few backcountry shots included, with several from Kings-to-be. I don't
know how he drove a car to those places. And I apologize for inviting Darin to lug beer up
Taboose Pass. It was actually from Sawmill Pass that AA took one of his influential park
shots (allegedly a worse hike up than even Taboose, though AA no doubt took a horse). His friend Cedric Wright also seems to have accompanied a number of these ventures.

[rdenney]

Below AA cooks-up something delicious, probably a serving of 8x10 film. ;)

Is that his car that his camera is within 10 feet of?

Rick "suspecting some folks--maybe even AA in his younger years--are confusing the hobby of backcountry hiking and the pursuit of photography, even though both can certainly be enjoyed together" Denney

[Vaughn]

Is that his car that his camera is within 10 feet of?

Rick "suspecting some folks--maybe even AA in his younger years--are confusing the hobby of backcountry hiking and the pursuit of photography, even though both can certainly be enjoyed together" Denney

Silly people...:rolleyes:

And in their older years, I bet they even confused the act of living with their pursuit of photography -- and Weston confusing his love of the ladies with his pursuit of photography (much to our pleasure!) :D

[Drew Wiley]

Dear Rick ... (Drew being ornery again just for the sheer fun of silly threads like this one)...
You East Coast types just don't get it. Photography and mountaineering are the same
avocation. I was in your state once and drove around. My sister moved back there when
he husband got a job in the State Dept in DC. The first weekend the neighbors asked if they wanted to drive to the mountains that weekend... She looked all around and asked,
What mountains? I've driven up along the Appalachians there in the fall, and admit it is was
pretty, but where we come from, them things is called gopher mounds!

[Mark Barendt]

Drew, you don't get it either.

I grew up in CA and live in the Rockies and really don't give a darn about hiking great distances, to get a shot or otherwise.

Don't get me wrong I'll hike a bit, but it never involves carrying a tent or sleeping bag and rarely requires more than an energy bar and a liter of water.

[Drew Wiley]

Thought this is what about Ansel liked to do. And anyone who has serious traisped around
these hills out here knows damn well that it took some effort to get to many of his famous
photographic viewpoints. Even something "relatively" close to the road, like his shot of Iceberg Lake up in the Minarets, required him lugging a heavy camera up the adjacent
Volcanic spur opposite. Ever been up that way? I once saw three people fall from the
glacier above Iceberg. I wouldn't even think of crossing between the upper lakes without an ice axe. He took lots of famous shots from the upper Kern plateau. That's quite a ways back from any direction. Deny all you want, but that old coot was a very serious outdoorsman; and there is a mountain of visual evidence that wilderness was a major
photographic theme of his. Yeah, by the time he hit his mid-30's he was using pack animals
to get around, and lots of his work was done in the vicinity of trails - but trails and auto
roads are still distinct from one another. But heck, I'm personally a coot myself, and damn
happy to still be lugging around an 8x10 up steep hills even if I never take a shot all day.

[tgtaylor]

Yeah, by the time he hit his mid-30's he was using pack animals
to get around,

Actually Adams used pack mules from the git go. There's a letter fom him to his old man asking for the funds to buy a mule for $20 and claiming that he could resell the mule at the end of the season for $10. He used a mule when shooting his first universally recognized image, and the one that brought him to national recognition, of Banner Peak from 1000 Island Lake. I can't remember who it was that was holding the mule while Ansel set up his camera for the shot.

Thomas

[tgtaylor]

By the time Adams hit his thirties he was using assistants.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

Our family donkey "Anabelle" was fairly famous. A neigbor who was a rodeo clown and Hall of Famer would pull this baby donkey out of his baggy clown pants, and when it got too
big he gave it to us. I got used to donkeys and mules on childhood backcountry trips,
though I carried a pack myself. Then I briefly worked for an outfitter in the high country.
I think llamas would be more convenient for carrying gear. But I sold my pasture, and really
prefer backpacking anyway. Lots of what Ansel did was on those big Sierra Club convoys,
which we local ended up resenting so much. Always knew where those things had been
by all the erosion and litter. Might have made sense in the early days of environmental
awareness, but was an anachronism thereafter.

[Darin Boville]

So, back to the original post.

My bet is that Ed Weston said something like "close to the car" and the 500 /feet/yards quote is Brett one-upping his dad. I see the 500 yards one attributed to Ed all over the web, though I'd bet money that it is wrong.

Trouble is I can't find and sources for either quote, though I'm sure I've read it myself. The Ed quote might be in one of the AA books though I thought it was in the Daybooks. I've looked a little but no luck.

Anyone know of anything in print?

--Darin

[Mark Barendt]

Thought this is what about Ansel liked to do.

Funny, I thought the thread was about staying close to the car



I remember reading several times that someone once said to St. Ansel: "There is nothing worth photo'ing that's more than 30 ft. from the car." Who was it that said that?



Kent in SD

[Drew Wiley]

What's a car?

[ROL]

Reminds me somewhat of the "tube tents" we used in the Boy Scouts for backpacking in the 60's! Of course, tube tents were not as sophisticated as to have zippers (a few clothes pins worked), just a tube of clear plastic one strung a line though between trees. :)

Used them happily in rain and snow, back then. One time, above treeline, my hiking partner ran the line from the ground at the foot end, anchored by a rock sitting on top of a boulder at the head end. Sometime during the thunderstorm gusts of the night I was beaned by the rock as it was torn loose. Just sayin' – anything I say or have ever said in these forums should be regarded with that salient admonition.

[ROL]

There's a sort of founding mythology in every field, much of it passed around in a sort of oral tradition (even when it is on the internet). I'm still convinced that the Ansel quote mention above--the topic of this thread!--isn't quite right. The "Ansel founded the national parks" sort of claim forms part of that mythology. You'd get the impression that Ansel sent a few picts over the Congress one day and then they said, "Well, shucks, that decides it! Look at dem pretty pictures!"

The real story on this (as on all legislation) is much more complicated. Here's what appears to be a great history of Sequoia-Kings Canyon's founding. Ansel is not mentioned as far as I can see.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/dilsaver-tweed/

Of course Ansel played a role, and an important one, both as a photographer and as a environmentalist. But I doubt he had anything quite like the god-like influence that many here think. If you want to claim otherwise I only request that you cite your sources...

--Darin

I generally do cite my sources. I thought that was the point of my post. Do you ever follow my links? Your argument and assertions regarding my quote are made out of whole cloth. Tweed is in fact a well known park historian of SEKI. The link you've posted is to single paged (abridged) versions of what appears to be a more detailed published book. No one in this post has claimed that Adams was totally responsible for the creation of the park. But it is true that his photographs, pretty much in the way that Drew has indicated played a pivotal role in the its final legal establishment, after having been in limbo for many years. The colorful, folksy way (gol durn it!) you've ascribed, seems pretty close to the mark, actually. It would seem that you are a victim of your own beliefs, mythology and all.

Adams' own words and those who have written without guile about him, make it very clear that he was no god–like anything. Please read published, reviewed works. Don't accept unsubstantiated internet opinion, even mine. Your ignorance is showing. Honestly, somebody needs to knock that chip off your shoulder.

[Vaughn]

...I think this thread is fun because the quote has been taken seriously & out of context.

:rolleyes:

Are we having fun yet? :p

[Drew Wiley]

I still own a tube tent and sometimes throw it in the bottom of the pack when I'm out on
a steep day hike in the High Country in so-so weather - just in case I twisted an ankle or
ran into someone else who did. But I'm still having a lot of trouble visualizing this car concept thing. Seems that cars were necessary to the invention and use of view cameras.
Just looked up the authoritative biography of Timothy O'Sullivan on the internet. Seems he
drove his Mercedes to Page Utah, then over to Lee's Ferry, where John D. Lee pushed it
onto a barge of lashed-together cottonwood logs ... and then from there he went down
the Colorado River with all his camera gear nice and dry in the car trunk. Wonder what kind
of car W.H. Jackson used.

[ROL]

Dean remarked how great a visionary Harding really was, and also that Harding did things that someone paralyzed by fear could scarcely imagine. I never met Warren...

Even RR, the better naturally talented climber, mellowed with Warren in later years, acknowledging his ballsy adventurous ascents. He was an unlikely (and sorely missed) force of nature.

Back to "campfire stories" (a much earlier post), I shared a few (campfires) with Warren, et. al. Here's one of my favorites, which perhaps exemplifies the admirable contrarian spirit of the man. Warren always wanted to apply grease to "Firefall Wall", a climbing route he first ascended, which closely followed the path of the once famous Firefall. He would station an accomplice at Glacier Point, who would yell down, "Hello, Camp Curry". Warren would be below, match in hand, answering , "Hello, Glacier Point". From on high, would come the final report, "Let the fire rise!"


FYI: I participated in shoving red fir coals off of GP during the Firefall's last year in the winter of '68.



I generally do cite my sources.

I am the source. :p

[BrianShaw]

I am the source.

That had me ROL'ing on the floor laffing!

[Vaughn]

FYI: I participated in shoving red fir coals off of GP during the Firefall's last year in the winter of '68.

I remember watching the fire fall -- and afterwards getting separated from my family on the way back to our campsite...wandering around the campground totally lost and confused until finally found by my Dad (and hero!) Late 1950's.

These days I tend to take a couple of light-weight tarps (and what we use to call parachute cord) and construct my own shelter.

[Drew Wiley]

My own insights of Warren Harding were from an ex-girlfriend of his from beck in them thar
days, who worked for our company here, as a much much older gal of course, and a colorful character in her own right. One of my nephew's favorite tricks was to throw a
headlamp off El Cap and let off a scream just as the tourist "geen dragon" wagon pulled
down the road in the evening to learn how climbers keep climbing at nite. Got their money's
worth that way and had something to tell back home.

[Heroique]

Are we having fun yet? :p

Did Bret also mean elevation?

I’m trying to plan a mountain trip w/ my GPS.

Is there anything photogenic if I hike more than 500 yards above my car, but my longitude & latitude are within 500 yards of it?

[Erik Larsen]

Forgive my ignorance please, what is a fire fall? I'm enjoying this side tracked thread from the side lines.
Regards
Erik

[Vaughn]

Altitude and altitude and be a dude (or dudette)! Anything 500 yds up and less than 500 yds out is a heck of a climb!

[Vaughn]

The original man-made Firefall :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_Firefall

The present day "Firefall" is a natural seasonal occurance:

http://www.yosemitepark.com/horsetail-fall.aspx

[Drew Wiley]

Given the drift of this thread, it's inevitable I'll eventually win the argument. Global warming
will kick in, all the flatlands will be submerged, and your GPS won't work underwater anyway. So there won't be anything left to photograph except mountains.

[Erik Larsen]

The original man-made Firefall :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_Firefall

The present day "Firefall" is a natural seasonal occurance:

http://www.yosemitepark.com/horsetail-fall.aspx

Thanks Vaughn, that's Wild. I found it a little ironic that in the wiki article it mentions that the hotel that sponsored the fire fall burnt down:)
Regards
Erik

[Heroique]

Anything 500 yds up and less than 500 yds out is a heck of a climb!

We’ve got switchback trails here in the Cascades, we’re lazy up here...


Given the drift of this thread, it’s inevitable I’ll eventually win the argument. Global warming will kick in, all the flatlands will be submerged, and your GPS won’t work underwater anyway. So there won’t be anything left to photograph except mountains.

That sounds more like Continental drift, not thread drift.

;^)

[Vaughn]

That’s sounds more like Continental drift, not thread drift.

;^)

This thread started drifting way before the usual 30 posts!

Perhaps a corollary would, the simpler the question the faster the drift!

[Drew Wiley]

I've only taken a few trips in the Cascades, Heroique, and do remeber chugging up Aasgard
Pass in the Enchantments with an 85lb pack - about a 6000 steep enough to need hands
in a couple of places, and no switchbacks. Not the altitude typical of the Sierras, but a
damn lovely hike. I went up on the "tail" of Dragontail Peak for a Sinar shot of the moonrise
over the summit, then glissaded all the way down to the lakes in the Basin. Hard to imagine
that lovely glacier all gone now, just 15 yrs later, speaking of global warming.

[Heroique]

Hard to imagine that lovely glacier all gone now, just 15 yrs later, speaking of global warming.

And now the trees are disappearing too (East side), thank you mountain pine beetle.

[Darin Boville]

I generally do cite my sources. I thought that was the point of my post. Do you ever follow my links? Your argument and assertions regarding my quote are made out of whole cloth. Tweed is in fact a well known park historian of SEKI. The link you've posted is to single paged (abridged) versions of what appears to be a more detailed published book. No one in this post has claimed that Adams was totally responsible for the creation of the park. But it is true that his photographs, pretty much in the way that Drew has indicated played a pivotal role in the its final legal establishment, after having been in limbo for many years. The colorful, folksy way (gol durn it!) you've ascribed, seems pretty close to the mark, actually. It would seem that you are a victim of your own beliefs, mythology and all.

Adams' own words and those who have written without guile about him, make it very clear that he was no god–like anything. Please read published, reviewed works. Don't accept unsubstantiated internet opinion, even mine. Your ignorance is showing. Honestly, somebody needs to knock that chip off your shoulder.

Hey ROL,

I *do* look at your links--the link to the AA oral history transcript was a good one but didn't see any reference to the quote in it. I also liked your REI catalog pict. No reference to the quote in that one either. Did I miss something?



Tweed is in fact a well known park historian of SEKI. The link you've posted is to single paged (abridged) versions of what appears to be a more detailed published book.

No, it appears to be the entire book. There's a "next" button at the bottom of each page so you can go through it. It is a long read. I didn't see any mention of AA in chapter seven. If you do find mention in this version of the book or in any longer version I'd love to hear about it. If you can point to *any* reputable source that Ansel "played a pivotal role in the its final legal establishment, after having been in limbo for many years" then please cite it. Hand waving will not do. I'm perfectly willing to be convinced that this is the case but the evidence that I can find doesn't support such a claim.


Please read published, reviewed works. Don't accept unsubstantiated internet opinion, even mine. Your ignorance is showing. Honestly, somebody needs to knock that chip off your shoulder.

Chill out, ROL. Not need to start the personal attacks. Either I'm wrong and you'll cite evidence to prove it--for something as big as establishing a national park there must be abundant evidence--or its a creation myth. Doesn't change my life much either way but I do find it an interesting question.

--Darin

[Drew Wiley]

Have you ever set a foot into that country, Darin? I grew up smack dab there, and hung
out with old cowboys who went into there long before it was a park, and very old Indians who crossed the passes before they ever met a white man in their life. Maybe if you got
out and started recognizing the import of some of those shots old Ansel took, and how much effort went into it, you'd get a little different perspective on the whole question than
playing Websurfer of the month. Like everything congress does, formation of a major park
involved quite a few elements. To say that AA's shots - specifically dedicated to that purpose, and specifically factored into the relevent lobby - were not highly influential -
is just an ostrich stunt to hide from the obvious. Do you really think all those lard-ass
senators and so forth just read a report or manuscript and made up their minds? Or did
Smokey the bear solicit all the chipmunks to contribute a buck to bribe them?

[Jim Jones]

. . . Wonder what kind
of car W.H. Jackson used.

Jackson finally learned to ride a bicycle when past 60. His youthful misadventures with oxen and mules were riskier.

[tgtaylor]

While you guys jacked yourselves off all afternoon wondering what Ansel Adams said, I made 2 Van Dykes and 2 Kallitypes:) which are hanging to dry.

Thomas

[tgtaylor]

I was going to print some B&W this evening but I didn't get finished with the above until 5pm this afternoon. So instead I watched the evening news and rented The Iron Lady for this evening. I'll get to the B&W later this weekend. I have several good negatives to print and a new print dryer that wil speed thing up.

Thomas

[Mark Barendt]

While you guys jacked yourselves off all afternoon wondering what Ansel Adams said, I made 2 Van Dykes and 2 Kallitypes:) which are hanging to dry.

Thomas

Well I actually shot some film, within 500 ft of the car of course. ;)

[tgtaylor]

Come to think about it the ones that I printed this afternoon were shot within 500 feet from the car:)

[Drew Wiley]

I'm low on paper and low on money due to all the 8x10 color film I've been stockpiling lately. Need to housepaint at least one day this weekend.
Supposed to be hot, so I'll head to the coast tomorrow, and as usual, will
carry the camera as far from the damn road as I can, even if I never shoot the thing. At my age skipping a good weekly knee workout is not a
smart thing to do. Gotta keep at it. And I'd rather have an 8X10 in the pack instead of a bunch of rocks. But this time of year I generally bag a nice negative or two each week. My gosh, sometimes I wish Springtime
would last forever; but when it's over, time for the high country! Maybe I'll
get one of those SUV's like Vittoria Sella used to drive straight up to 23000
ft on Chogolisa with his 18X22. Amazing the cars they had back then!

[tgtaylor]

Get a 2 wheeler for the big camera and tripod and a bicycle for the 4x5 and smaller. The falls in Yosemite are running nice right now and for the next week or so but B&H got Manfrotto shit in gear and I have my GT0540 tripod back in use. I've been shooting an urban project which was put on hold awaiting my tripod repair and during the interlude I've been thinking about continuing it in IR which I have on hand. I'll take two cameras on the bike: the 645N and 67II Pentax's...nope, can't do that together as the 6x7 camera will require the G1348 tripod which is too big for the bike...no, I can get the G1348 on the bike but I can't "hide" it as I can with the GT0540. Anyway I'm back on the urban project with both IR and B&W.

All the trays that were drying in the kitchen just fell on the floor. Gota go.

Thomas