Clear Epoxy Resin over Prints [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

willwilson

8-Jan-2009, 18:59

Frank Petronio

8-Jan-2009, 20:07

Wouldn't the epoxy do strange things to the mat board you're dry-mounting to? I've seen that the face-mounted glued to plexi prints need to be mounted onto something stiffer, like aluminum.

Ivan J. Eberle

8-Jan-2009, 21:28

Typically, unpigmented epoxies are anything but archival. They yellow quickly when exposed to UV. There can also be serious health consequences to inhaling epoxies without the right respirator, particularly an allergic reaction that sets up sometime after initial exposure.

There are photographic print lacquers that are reasonably long-lived and non-yellowing. Nowhere near as archival as the print materials, but probably 10-15 years before they begin to degrade, provided you keep the print from getting wet, etc. Key to a good lacquering job is to not build it up too thick or it'll crack and flake off.

And yes, whatever you use for a substrate had better be impervious to the solvents. Most foam-cor will buckle.

IanMazursky

8-Jan-2009, 21:32

I have seen plaques that have been lacquered and they are over 30+ years old.
Whatever they use is probably a lot more archival.
My fathers are almost 30 years and they are as good as the day he got his diploma.

Frank Petronio

8-Jan-2009, 21:44

I stuck this decoupaged inkjet out in a tree over two years ago, it ain't too bad considering that it's the End Times... $5 at the craft store and very easy to work with.

David A. Goldfarb

8-Jan-2009, 21:58

Strand lacquered his prints to give them more gloss, and I've heard from someone who has worked with these prints that this has been something of an archival nightmare, as the lacquer has crazed over time, and since it soaked through the emulsion, the emulsion layer is also cracked.

willwilson

9-Jan-2009, 16:19

Typically, unpigmented epoxies are anything but archival. They yellow quickly when exposed to UV.

So, does that mean that all of the modern art being created with epoxy is going to yellow in 10 years? What is quickly and are there non-typical epoxies that don't yellow or some type of uv coating that could be applied to reduce or eliminate yellowing?

I am not interested in lacquer. I want thick clear glass like coatings.

Anybody have any ideas about where I could do some reading about epoxy in general. All the info I have found tends to be a little biased. Its either from a manufacturer saying how great their epoxy is or a retailer. Any good artist forums where their might be some practicing artist using this stuff?

I am going to do some testing but yellow over 10 or more years is hard to test for.

Thanks!

Drew Wiley

9-Jan-2009, 17:00

This kind of thing is done with polyester resins, not epoxies. You could try a decoupage
kit if the print is small and of no real value. Embedding large prints is an extemely tricky
proposition, but has been done commercially at considerable expense. Make sure you have good ventilation and rubber gloves. This stuff is not healthy to touch or breathe.
The chemicals involved are pure voodoo in terms of color dye stability- in other words,
not recommended if "archival" is an issue. Unlike expoxies or print lacquers, some polyester resins do not yellow much. But the type of resin you'd be looking for is quite a bit different from fiberglass resins. Just go to the sites of plastics dealers and search
"decoupage". It used to be a popular hobby item.

Wilbur Wong

9-Jan-2009, 21:15

I have not tried this for prints myself, but as a professional builder, I have used polyurethane finishes for hardwood flooring which may give you the finish and durability you are looking for.

My favorite products are from Bonakemi (a swedish company) but they are widely available from professional flooring care and installation suppliers. Don't look for these at home depot.

They offer solvent based finishes as well, but I use only the waterborne varieties including catalyzed ones. Most of them including "Bona Traffic" which is a catalyzed finish stays extremely clear. If you are interested in trying these out, be advised that you want to have your work flat horizontal. These finishes have very low viscosities unlike most other coatings. This allows them to "self level" before polymerizing, as such you can get extremely flat smooth finish surfaces. You have choices of satin through high gloss surfaces.

BTW, these are very low VOC volatile organic compounds and there is almost no odors that are objectionable to most people, even during the application. MSDS doesn't classify these as hazardous waste, it does recommend adequate ventilation during application. These usually set up to a tack free surface in less than an hour, so don't do it on windy days if you want it to stay dust free.
Application is usually done with "spreaders" which are available up to 24 inches wide. Be forewarned that the spreader itself needs a pretty good load of material itself, the usual application is pouring the material onto the surface and spreading it, yes you can use a brush, or a painting pad which perhaps might be your best bet for small areas.

The non catalyzed versions are also polyurethanes which polymerize in reaction to moisture (from the air). So either case, once set up, these don't dissolve again with solvents.

MARK RITCHEY

9-Jan-2009, 21:49

Epoxies contain aromatic compounds derived from bisphenol.
The aromatic molecules are notorious for yellowing over time.
Many of the plastic panels over fluorescent lights were clear styrene and they show severe yellowing after a year or two.
I rember ilfochrome (formerly cibachrome) sold laminating films that would double the life of their prints.
Wilbur Wong's comment about floor sealing urethanes actually sound promising. Make sure that these are based on non aromatic toluene diisocyanate or polymeric methylene iso's which contain aromatics. Many of the best clear coat urethane automobile finishes are of this type. Be careful with any urethane system as some people are hyperallergic to some.
Many years ago I used the urethane floor resins to coat plywood darkroom sinks and it worked great !

knoche

9-Jan-2009, 23:51

I once used a polyester laminating resin to lay up a Ciba print in a flat piece for a clip board.
There were two issues. Apparently, the print was not absolutely dry (air dried in Arizona for a week at 13% RH, I thought would be enough) and there were several small areas that de-laminated after a year or so appearing as small flat bubbles. The second issue was that even though the polyester resin claimed to be non yellowing and UV resistant it did yellow considerably after a couple of years. I have had it now for 30 years and it hasn't gotten any worse though the colors in the print were altered almost from the beginning. I do not know if the color cast is from the color of the resin itself or there was some dye reaction in the print to other compounds in the resin or catalyst. There could be other chemical reactions, too (residuals in the prints, contaminates in the resin or catalyst, heat from the curing, etc.)

There are a very large number of "epoxy" resin formulations and various catalysts. I have no idea what might happen for any given one. Most UV protection comes from pigments added to the resins, usually carbon (not very useful for this application).
One could run some tests. Typically one would laminate some samples and do accelerated aging tests - high heat, high UV levels, very high brightness sunlight, etc and measure the results periodically, each condition separately and in various combinations. Since the assumption is that the effects will manifest with cumulative exposure, doubling the exposure level should show results in half the time, increasing levels an order of magnitude expresses in 1/10th the time, etc.
Accelerated aging tests are what everyone uses for predicting archival life - most don't really wait for 100 years to see if prints fade... expose for 100x the normal light level and see how long it takes to fade, a year of test is about 100 years of normal exposure. There are is a whole body of test engineering devoted to this stuff. I have a few texts around here somewhere with models for accelerated aging tests of photographic prints.

There are any number of "photo" lacquers in spray cans and bulk and I have them with good results over many different print materials. I have several 50 year + prints that were lacquered and they are all fine.

Roger Thoms

11-Jan-2009, 11:02

Anybody have any experience working with clear epoxy or know someone that does? I am experimenting with alternative mounting/framing methods and have been looking at epoxies. I am thinking about covering dry-mounted fiber prints with one or more layers clear epoxy. Would this work? Am I crazy?

My concern would be the ultimate result of the reaction between the epoxy and the print or mount board causing discoloration/damage over time (multiple years). Also, the yellowing of the epoxy itself. I have read epoxy is UV resistant. Anybody know if you can put an additional UV coating on epoxy or how UV resistant it actually is?

And before someone who hinge mounts says it. I know this would not be archival or reversible...

Thanks!

Hi, Here is a link for System Three table top resin. I have used this for a coating a wide variety of art materials including photographs. I recommend RC paper over fiber paper. The biggist problem I have had with coating with resin is small air bubbles coming out of the paper, this is much less of a problem with RC paper. If you try the Mirror Coat, read the instructions and yes the propane torch does work for pop small bubbles in the resin. I have also had success sanding and recoating to get rid of bubbles.

I might add the archival is not always necessary.
Roger

http://www.systemthree.com/p_mirror_coat.asp

eddie

12-Jan-2009, 05:32

i have never tried this on a photo, but i do it to my wet plate collodion images on aluminum.

i work as an auto body tech. i could never get the "gum sandrac" varnish to flow correctly, so i brought the stuff to work and sprayed regular automotive clear on them. works perfect. produces a nice smooth shiny surface...just like you would want on your muscle car!

i believe they make this stuff resistant to UV or all the cars would look like shit pretty fast. i do not know the archival properties but i have seen a classic car that is driven regularly that we painted 15+ years ago and it looks fine.

eddie

willwilson

12-Jan-2009, 06:18

Thanks everyone, for the great information!

-=Will

JMyerz

6-Mar-2009, 13:03

I shape surfboards as a hobby, my profession is photography. Unlike polyester resins, which breakdown as UV hits it and subsequently turns yellow, Epoxy actually gets harder / stronger.

I haven't seen a epoxy that won't yellow. We usually combat this by adding white pigment to the resin mixture.

FWIW I'm doing some experiments with glassing photographs into my surfboards...

PenGun

6-Mar-2009, 13:43

Here ya go. Crystal Sheen for many things including photos.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eti-usa.com%2Fconsum%2Fcrystals%2Fcrystals.htm&ei=dImxSYLQDZKasAOv8tyHAQ&usg=AFQjCNEY577-Yeyx63rwJS9TTLjkAi8dsw&sig2=fgjGo0XvLjUE2EeE_IQS7g

Not sure how archival it is but it's been around in one form or other for years.

sanking

6-Mar-2009, 13:53

UV radiation will definitely break down epoxy coating. I could take you to any marina in America and show you some examples.

The clean coating that is done at automobile restoration stores is probably the best thing available as it has a proven history of standing up to high UV radiation in outdoor use.

Sandy King

I shape surfboards as a hobby, my profession is photography. Unlike polyester resins, which breakdown as UV hits it and subsequently turns yellow, Epoxy actually gets harder / stronger.

I haven't seen a epoxy that won't yellow. We usually combat this by adding white pigment to the resin mixture.

FWIW I'm doing some experiments with glassing photographs into my surfboards...

JMyerz

6-Mar-2009, 20:37

sanking

7-Mar-2009, 07:52

Epoxy coatings on surfboards are very hard and hold up well. However, surfboards don't typically stay outside in the sun all the time so they won't ever receive the amount of UV radiation you get on the bright work of boats. On boats bright work that is epoxy coated is almost always given a protective coating of some type of UV resistant varnish. The epoxy is there to encapsulate the wood and the UV resistant varnish protects the epoxy.

The point of this is simply that epoxy coatings as a general rule are not UV resistant and this would not be a good option for an archival coating over a photograph, IMO.

Sandy King

Thats interesting, and in no way disagreeing, but in Epoxy surfboard advertising I see so much hype about how epoxy becomes stronger as it yellows!

Nathan Potter

7-Mar-2009, 08:27

I know little to nothing about this but what about the clear plastic resin that I see used for potting various items in cubes. I've seen sea shells cast in such stuff for example and the clear plastic seems to stay clear for years. Is this some sort of casting acrylic resin?

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

dubesor

15-Jan-2010, 10:32

I know this is an old thread, but I'd love to hear from people about this ...

Has anyone tried automotive clear for large works (i'm looking at about 30x45 inch prints)? What would you apply it with?

Donald Miller

15-Jan-2010, 14:31

HVLP

Donald Miller

Drew Wiley

15-Jan-2010, 17:14

Spraying stuff potentially has very serious health and fire hazard implications, depending. I've known of a few building which blew up around here due to old-time
lacquers, a rail car being totally vaporized (though the cigarette lighter somehow
survived!). You have to do your homework, including studying the MSDS sheets.
HVLP is safer than the old atomized spray rigs, but without a spray booth and the
other right gear you could possibly end up, well, er ... dead! Polyester and epoxy
resins aren't to be trifled with. I've known quite a few people who died relatively young by acting macho with that kind of stuff, or were shaking and crippled for life.

Drew Wiley

15-Jan-2010, 17:28

I should have added that in most cities there are restrictions to what kind of spray
equipment can be used. There are also Federal and OSHA rules. There's a good reason
for this. A few years back I had some summer help - a college kid who ended up having
a third of his lungs removed due to working around polyester in a plant in Minn several
summers earlier. When someone asked why he didn't sue that company for ruining his
health, he simply responded that it wouldn't do any good - they were all already dead!
I could probably cite two dozen horror stories like this.

John G.

15-Jan-2010, 18:23

Just found this and.. maybe I can contribute enough to stop being a serial lurker.

I've got a fair bit of experience using marine epoxies and polyesters. Provided they're used in a well ventilated area they are basicly harmless. They also generate a lot of heat when curing and the fumes are extremely volitile but... those are manageable hazards if a little common sense is used.

If you wanted to try I'd recomend you used a self leveling resin... that is basicly what it sounds like... the stuff levels itself out into even layers. You'd also have to get multiple coats on, and ensure the recoat time was right so it didn't get (a) too wet and hot or (b) too dry. Once it dries you have to sand to get an adhesion for the recoats, and that would be visible later.

Generally thinking I'd not bother trying. There are too many issues with the commonly availible mixes if you're chasing a perfectly clear hard coat with an extended life span. Yellow, crazing and heat distortions would all make it a difficult way to go.

But, having read this I'm now wondering at an epoxy seal between two bits of plexiglass, or real glass come to that. The secret with epoxy or polyester resins is always in the surface prep - if you were to lightly bead blast around the edges, place your picture in, apply a thin coat of resin then press two sheets together it would give an airtight seal. Further resin over that would result in a totally sealed archival storage and.. at any future time all you'd have to do is break the glass if you wanted it out.

Interesting thought... I'm going to try it.

John.

Drew Wiley

15-Jan-2010, 19:24

John - if you think marine epoxies are basically harmless you are very,very,very
naive. I know and have known a variety of people involved in the manufacture of
these. Many of them become downright loopy. Others shake uncontrollably. Some seem fine for a number of years and then suddenly shift into sensitivity so extreme
that if they even touch a baked enamel metal desk they go into hives and anapylactic shock. I sell to the marine trade, including the Coast Guard, and I do use marine epoxies for structural repairs, or for making certain types of darkroom equipment, but always OUTDOORS. Very few people are properly shop-equipped for indoor use of these chemicals. A respirator isn't enough. In any event, they're worthless for photographs. Many of these products are made in our area, over in the side of the Bay health worker refer to as "cancer alley". The owner of one chemical enterprise at least died happy. He had a permanent big grin, walked in a slow high goose-step, and seemed permanently drunk. The last time I ever saw him, he told me, "Ishe been workin wish theeshs for shirty yearsh, and it hashn't hurt me a bit!"

Drew Wiley

15-Jan-2010, 20:03

PS - sorry to seem rude, John, but yes, I am trying to scare people. The fact is, I am the purchasing agent for the company which buys and resells more marine epoxy etc in N.Calif than probably anyone else, among the many other products we
distribute. I have a lot of experience with this industry and those people who use
these things. I also sell equipment for safely removing marine coatings.
Been doing this for a long time. And one of the reasons we've had so few serious
incidents of our own is that we warn people up front about the hazards. Unfortunately, not everyone does. And I've met artists blinded or nerve-damaged
for life by a single blatant incident of product abuse. You don't just have to mfg the
stuff to get really sick. And my assuption is, nobody trying to coat a photograph is
going to do it outdoors with a directional airflow fan because the coating will end up
with aphids and flies and dirt and pollen in it. No piece of art is worth ruining one's
health!

anchored

15-Jan-2010, 20:56

Wouldn't mounting the print between sheets of acrylic provide the same effect and purpose? An internet search should provide loads of resources for places to have this done for you, and I would think for information on how to do one self.

I/we have had a few prints prepared by a photo lab in this matter for art shows... they do appear as if the print is deeply embedded in resin. Far safer and convenient than using resins I would think.

D. Bryant

15-Jan-2010, 20:57

A much safer product to consider coating prints is, Hydrocote Resisthane Plus. It is water based and non-yellowing. It has been used to coat ink jet prints to provide a protective surface and to increase DMAX. The best method of application is by spraying.

Details about the product can be found here:

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/hydrocoteglossresisthaneplusgallon.aspx

Don Bryant

willwilson

16-Jan-2010, 08:13

This is the artist that originally got me thinking about embedding work in clear plastic of some sort: http://www.jordaneagles.com/ I sent him an email early on asking for some pointers without much luck. He was a little tight lipped about his materials and process, but very nice. He did give me some ideas, just not I use this and order from here and this is how I do it. I can't find the email at the moment or I'd post it.

As Drew pointed out, you really need a proper space to do this type of work as it can be hazardous to your health, and dust can be an issue. I do not have such a space so this project is on hold. Facemounting to Plexiglass is a totally diferent deal, not really what I was looking for. It does look nice, but I think I would drive myself crazy wondering when it was going to get scratched.

dubesor

16-Jan-2010, 09:14

i wish there was an easier and safer way to do something like this, but the posts in this thread scare me.

Ed Kelsey

16-Jan-2010, 11:13

Breathing Color's Glamour II varnish is a better option.

D. Bryant

16-Jan-2010, 16:15

i wish there was an easier and safer way to do something like this, but the posts in this thread scare me.

That's why I posted the link to the Hydrocote product.

Don Bryant

dubesor

19-Jan-2010, 15:32

Mike Anderson

20-Jan-2010, 19:22

I know I'm late the party but have you looked at Colorplak mounting - www.colorplak.com. I haven't used it, but it looks like this guy (http://www.widerange.org) uses it.

...Mike

Drew Wiley

21-Jan-2010, 21:53

Colorplak looks simply like an ordinary vinyl overlaminate with a very cheap, very nonarchival substrate. Good for a tradeshow or something temporary indoors, not
for keeper prints.

Acheron Photography

23-Jan-2010, 04:33

In a fit of pique, once, over a print that had not come out as I intended, I put a thin coat of light furniture varnish over it with a paint brush. I was not careful with the application and fully expected to throw the print away after the experiment. I was amazed how well it turned out: the varnish left a beautiful matt effect with a slight yellow brown tinge, and the imperfections due to my brush work were not visible at normal viewing distance. Obviously this is very different from someone trying for a very smooth even effect with an entirely different coating, but at least with varnishes intended for domestic use, finding a product that does not require a gas mask to apply is easier...

The print is now on my wall.

David.

Sean Galbraith

23-Jan-2010, 14:37

One of my partners uses an art resin on all of his pieces. They are dry mounted on a board/frame, coated in some kind of spray protective, and then he uses a 2 part resin and pours 3 or so coats on top for a thick glossy finish. He sells a tonne of them. I think he uses this stuff: http://www.artresin.com/

Roger Thoms

4-Feb-2010, 11:22

Sounds very similar to System Three Mirror Coat. Any Idea what the spray protective is that your friend uses?

The problem I've had with resin over photographs is very small air bubbles coming out of the paper. Sounds like the spray protective might be the solution.

Roger

ctg

7-Feb-2010, 02:39

Hmm . . during trial sales, I had some work laminated with various thckinesses: 3 mil, 5 mil & 10 mil. They didn't seeem to sell but they were laminated for showing where the print would be exposed to a lot of abuse over a period of time.
The foam core mounting board was laminated with 3 mil & have held up well over the years, thing is that coating prints tends to leave you with a glossy prints only. I did a 10mil unmounted print trimming the material with a half inch border. These were free standing during the exhibit. They all held up well so far (little over 2 Years) without scratches & bent corners.