Pondering a 5x12...

[Scott --]

Hi, all -

As I start developing some 1960-vintage Ansco Super Hypan (fog, anyone?), I'm pondering my current whim: A 5x12 mini-banquet camera. I've about fallen in love with the format. Now I just need to decide whether to buy a used camera and modify the back, or build one from scratch.

Anyone have one of these beasts with sage words for me? Advice on things to look for, sourcing holders, etc? If you've got one, let me know, 'cause, should I decide to build, I may need to bug you for some dimensions...

Scott

[Vaughn]

If I were to approach this format, I would go 11x14 instead -- using a modified darkslide to get two 6x14 negatives per sheet of film. The proportions are very close(12/5=2.4, 14/6=2.33), and 11x14 equipment (and film) would be easier to track down than 5x12.

Of course, the size and weight of the equipment would be significantly bigger, but one would also have an 11x14 system without adding cost or weight.

Vaughn

[Nick_3536]

I just did a quick search and couldn't find anybody making 5x12 holders. You might want to look for holders first.

If you can't find any holders maybe consider 4x10 instead. Fairly close in format. You could adapt an 8x10 to 4x10 easily enough.

[Scott --]

Nick, S&S makes 5x12 holders. T'ain't cheap, but that'd be alright, especially if I built the camera. :D

That said, I have a line on an old camera that'd make a good sacrificial body, though it's not exactly cheap, either...

4x10's an option, though.

[Nick_3536]

I thought S&S might but couldn't find any.

[Scott --]

You know, I found a picture of them the other day (beautiful things, too), but I'll be dipped if I can find them now... Sandy?

[Nick_3536]

http://www.qualitycamera.com/VCadvertisement.html

That's the best I can do but they aren't listed on the film holder section of the site.

I'm just trying to get people to go 4x10 so it'll make more sense for me :D

[Bruce Watson]

If I were to approach this format, I would go 11x14 instead -- using a modified darkslide to get two 6x14 negatives per sheet of film. The proportions are very close(12/5=2.4, 14/6=2.33), and 11x14 equipment (and film) would be easier to track down than 5x12.

Of course, the size and weight of the equipment would be significantly bigger, but one would also have an 11x14 system without adding cost or weight.

Vaughn

I was thinking just the opposite - 10 x 4. It's a format that still actively supported, there are film holders being made, and it's lighter weight. And any lens that will work with 10x8 will work with 10x4. And you can always cut down 10x8 film if required.

That said, it ultimately depends somewhat on what you want to do with it. 10x4 is pretty small for a contact print for example.

[Scott --]

Contact printing is the ultimate goal. Got a look at Tillman's, Mark Mutmansky's, and Chris McCaw's banquet stuff, and I'm there... :D

[vinny]

Here's a fella that shoots 5x12. I think he's got a shen hao.
http://www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2601

[Vaughn]

I was thinking just the opposite - 10 x 4. It's a format that still actively supported, there are film holders being made, and it's lighter weight. And any lens that will work with 10x8 will work with 10x4. And you can always cut down 10x8 film if required.

That said, it ultimately depends somewhat on what you want to do with it. 10x4 is pretty small for a contact print for example.

I am already making 4x10's using an 8x10 camera (two 4x10 negs per 8x10 sheet of film). If and when I go 11x14, then I'll make 5.5x14's (math genuis that I am, I just realised that 6+6=12!...so one will not be able to match the 5x12 proportion going the 11x14 route and two negs/sheet of film).

Over 90% of my photos are taken quite a distance from my car (and I tend to be away from the car for 6+ hours), so it is nice to have two systems (8x10 and 4x10) in one, rather than two dedicated camera systems...and having to pick which one to use for the day.

For me, 4x10's actually make nice size contact prints -- not that I would pass by the opportunity to make 5.5x14's, or better yet, 7x17's!

Vaughn

[Vaughn]

Here is a 4x10 from my set up (8x10 camera, modified darkslide -- two 4x10's per sheet of film...

Redwoods, Bull Creek Flat
Taken during a very light rain.
Platinum/palladium print

Vaughn

[Michael Mutmansky]

If contact printing is the preferred printing method, then by all means, the 5x12 is the better way to go. 4x10 is too small to hold a wall in my opinion. 5x12 has a better presence. 7x17 is even better, but it has it's own set of problems, the least of which is the size of the equipment.

I suggest you cut out some pieces of brown grocery bag paper to the image size of the 4x10 and 5x12. Do the image size, not the film size. This makes a big difference on these smaller formats, as the height is considerably reduced by the filmholder guides. Use a blank piece of paper for the image area so the mass of the image is felt, but you perception is not affected by any image or markings.

Then, tape them into a larger white mat or paper that is sized to a good matting size for the image, and then hang them on the wall for about a week. After about a week of looking at them, you will be familiar enough with the format size to make an informed decision about whether the 4x10 is big enough for your needs.

I seem to recall that Igor had a 5x12 Korona for a little while. You might want to see if they still have it. They do pop up from time to time. Sandy makes holders. In fact, he may have some discounted if you are interested. Check directly with him.

As for film, There's sources out there, but don't expect to be able to buy a single box or two. You need to be thinking in terms of a big film order that will hold you for a number of years. The Ilford order recently has included 5x12, so if you meet the minimum order for that, you'll be set for a while.

For the most part, all 8x10 lenses will work on a 5x12 just fine, so there is no real problem with lens availability. I've used a 110 SS XL on 5x12. Nice looking image, but you have to overexpose to ensure you don't underexpose the edges of the frame. (Don't think if it as corner falloff, but edge falloff, as the width is so great compared to the height that the entire left and right edges will have similar falloff).

There's a world of difference between a 5x12 banquet camera and an 11x14 or other camera, so I won't even consider them in the same sentence. It's an illogical approach to unless you have a problem with commitment, in which case the hedge position of an 11x14 with some kind of reduction back of split darkslide possibly in some twisted horsehair-shirt sort of way makes sense.


---Michael

[Sanjay Sen]

I have been looking at 5x12 too as I have a 10x12 camera which I intend to use for this format as well. S&S makes 5x12 holders, but I believe they are not currently available through Quality Camera - Sandy mentioned somewhere that it's a special order item. I have sent him an email with this question but haven't heard back from him yet.

As far as film is concerned, you can get 5x12 film through the Ilford special order, or you can get larger sized film cut to special order by Photo Warehouse.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Unless thinks have changed, Photo warehouse is not able to cut film down any more.

Has this changed?


---Michael

[Sanjay Sen]

Unless thinks have changed, Photo warehouse is not able to cut film down any more.

Has this changed?


---Michael

Michael, your information is probably more current than mine.


Best wishes,
Sanjay

[Jeremy Moore]

I seem to recall that Igor had a 5x12 Korona for a little while. You might want to see if they still have it.
---Michael

I was thinking the same thing, too, Michael:

Korona View 5x12 Panoramic, 8x10 brass lens, two film holders, Ex/Ex+ $1450. (http://www.igorcamera.com/large_format.htm)

[Colin Graham]

Here's a fella that shoots 5x12. I think he's got a shen hao.
http://www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2601

Hey, thanks for the link Vinny. Actually I made my 5x12 and the holders last year. It's a wonderful format Scott, let me know if you'd like some details.

One thing I did do before I made the camera was make a mask for my 4x5 with the same aspect ratio and I used this for several months to make sure I liked the format. I also enlarged to 5x12 and framed some to make sure I like the final size for contacts. I did, on both counts, very much and have rarely used any other format since....

Sweet! My Ilford order just this minute arrived! Just in time, was down to six sheets.

[Mike Castles]

Good advice from Michael (as always IMO). I queried Michael recently, when I started my search for a 7x11 (if you think 5x12 is hard to find - camera and holders, try 7x11). He offered very good advice (including just masking 8x10 down to 6.5x10), but in the end I got lucky and found an old Eastman No. 2.

Since I love the 5x7 format, the 7x11 made sense to me vs a 12x20. I had done some 4x10's with my 8x10 Korona which I liked OK, but was not wild about. 8x10 was to square (more like 4x5 to me) but I did like the Bigger negative for contact printing. I now have the 7x11, with 4 holders (2 of which are off to Alan at www.filmholders.com ) for new dark slides. Film?, well cutting down 11x14 (one nice cut is all it takes) and hoping to find some overstock (yeah right) from the Ilford ULF run. If none shows up, it is not a problem, can just continue to cut 11x14 until next years run (or hope someone will fill the void left by J&C for odd formats).

Why all this, it is my way of saying if you feel like this is your format, then go for it. There are a lot of reason to not do it, but if you feel it is your format then some of your best work may be ahead of you. BTW, Igor's does have a 5x12 Korona on their site. Good luck, and most of all enjoy.

[Sanjay Sen]

I was thinking the same thing, too, Michael:

Korona View 5x12 Panoramic, 8x10 brass lens, two film holders, Ex/Ex+ $1450. (http://www.igorcamera.com/large_format.htm)
I think that camera has been there for sometime now. It was also on eBay, but nobody has snatched it up yet. I saw it after I spent all my money on the Wehman! I vaguely remember seeing one at Lens & Repro, but I don't see it anymore.

[Scott --]

Thanks for all the input, everyone! I'm really enjoying reading it.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure this is the camera at Igor's (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Korona-5x12-Panoramic-View-Banquet-camera_W0QQitemZ190113233583QQihZ009QQcategoryZ15248QQcmdZViewItem), and it sold. Which is fine - it's way too rich for my blood. I'm looking at an odd-sized camera that can be reduced down to 5x12 for less than $500. Which is still too rich for my blood. Which is why I'm considering building one.

Colin, absolutely, I want to talk with you! I'll PM you.

I really like the aspect ratio of the 5x12, and think it's large enough to stand alone on the wall (FWIW, I plan to contact print 5x7 as well). Again, I keep waffling between whether I want to scratch-build, or modify. Hmm... :rolleyes:

Thanks everyone.
Scott

[Nick_3536]

If you feel up to it building an extension back for a 5x7 shouldn't be that complex. You'll have problems with very wide lenses because of the added depth but that's about it. Ignoring weight etc. Just think about a sloping sided box attached to the back end. Holders are going to be the expensive bit no matter what.

[Diane Maher]

Scott,
I also shoot 5x12 and love the format. AWB also makes holders for this format as does S&S, but neither one is cheap new. Photowarehouse no longer cuts film. I get my film from the yearly Ilford order.

[Jim Galli]

As an exercise, and it won't cost you a thing, why not mask your 4X5 to 2X5 and burn some film at that ratio. Make some good enlargements to the designated 5X12 and matt and frame them. Stare at them a while and see if you are either more or less excited by the format.

[Jim Noel]

I lusted over 5x12 for some time. Along the way I ran into some 4x10 holders and decided to make a 4x10 camera. This was easily accomplished by cutting down the back of an old 8x10 and building a box to which it is attached. The 165 Angulon was originally mounted in a drilled out plastic sewer cap which threaded onto a piece of sewer pipe threaded for it. This worked, although it was not ideal. Then I ran into a focusing mount from a large Durst enlarger. This has replaced the sewer cap and works very well.

I disagree with those who say that 4x10 is too small for a contact print. I still use a 6x17cm Fuji and images with it always attract more attention, and sales, than many of the larger images, certainly more than more common formats such as 8x10 and 11x14.

That camera along with my home made 4x10 are now complemented by my new to me Korona 7x17 which I just acquired. I won't reveal the price, but the entire kit with holders, lens, contact frame, camera and case was near its original selling price and is pristine. The last negative printed in the frame was 1947, and I also have that.

I no longer am searching for a 5x12 as I think my arsenal is now pretty complete.

[Vaughn]

Jim, congrats on getting the 7x17! Sounds like a great find! Someday...

And I agree that a 4x10 can look great on the wall. Even an 11x14 can look "too small" if the wall is large and the viewing distance is far. 5x12 has 50% more area than a 4x10, but in most cases, this does not necessarily translate into a significant increase in size. The viewing distance for a 4x10 and a 5x12 is pretty close. But 7x17 is twice the area of 5x12...aaaaaaah!

Vaughn

[Matt Miller]

I see there is some 5x12 PL100 for sale on ebay here (and lots of other hard to find sizes): http://stores.ebay.com/stuffmore-sales

[sanking]

I have been away on vacation in the Pacific northwest for the past two weeks and for the most part avoided the internet and I just stumbled on this thread.

We (S&S) made a batch of (20) 5X12 holders a few years ago. The impetus was Tilman Crane who had just acquired a 5X12 camera but needed some holders. As I recall Tilman purchased five of the holders, and I subsequently sold some more to others, but I still have a few on hand as of right now, though someone just purchased one. The original batch was made to the exact specifications of a 5X12 Korona holder that Tilman provided me.

In spite of the beauty of this format, which I seriously considered adopting myself, interest in it is very low (based on S&S sales) compared to 7X17, 8X20, 11X14 and 12X20. Nevertheless we will probably make another batch of the holders, with a few improvements we have incorporated into the other sizes, sometime later this year.

Sandy

[C Henry]

It is the format that I'm currently considering. Lenses are no problem. Cameras... well it is possible to get canham or shen hao. Film holders and film, I guess acquiring both are plausible. Now I just need to convince myself that it wouldn't be a foolish purchase compared to 10x8 which I regard as too square most of the time....

[Susie Frith]

Hi guys. I recently bought a Korona 5x12 from Igor along with 2 DDS. It seems ideal for my needs although if my plan for rebuilding the rear standard of one of my Linhofs comes about, the camera might go back on the market! A 5x12 Kardan Color, to me, would be better. My other panoramic plan is to extend a Kodak all-metal view to 8x20. Before anyone starts to fret though, it would need a total rebuild before it took any pictures again anyway, but comparing the two, the smaller format is more intimate.