Salt Print

[Andrew O'Neill]

The original was captured on 8x10 film (CatLABS 80), but the negative did not have the density range for alt processes, such as Salt. So... I scanned in the negative, and made a digital inkjet neg, and eventually, a Salt print.


https://youtu.be/YtweCMrazMQ

[phdgent]

I never done salt Printing but I am very eager to try it, so may I please ask a few questions?

- Why did the original negative's density not fit for Salt Printing?
- What paper did you use, I mean the kind of paper structure, type, weight and fiber composition, and eventually the brand?
- Did you 'prepare' the paper's surface before pouring the emulsion (Baryte and/or gelatine)?

Thank you,

[esearing]

Salt printing is addictive. I had several salt prints turn gray and muddy when left in a box for a year. I may have to try gold toning next go round.

[jnantz]

such a great video! thanks Andy !

[Andrew O'Neill]

I never done salt Printing but I am very eager to try it, so may I please ask a few questions?

- Why did the original negative's density not fit for Salt Printing?
- What paper did you use, I mean the kind of paper structure, type, weight and fiber composition, and eventually the brand?
- Did you 'prepare' the paper's surface before pouring the emulsion (Baryte and/or gelatine)?

Thank you,


The paper is mould made. 100% cotton. 320 gsm. No alkaline buffering. Revere Platinum.
Paper surface is not treated (sizing, etc) before salt and silver sensitising.
Print is Gold toned after fixing

[Andrew O'Neill]

such a great video! thanks Andy !

Thank you!!

[Vaughn]

Very nicely done!

[phdgent]

The paper is mould made. 100% cotton. 320 gsm. No alkaline buffering. Revere Platinum.
Paper surface is not treated (sizing, etc) before salt and silver sensitising.
Print is Gold toned after fixing

Thank you, this and the video will be a good starting point.

Now I will have to experiment with manual reversal film developing (I decommissioned my Colenta AT60 and don't want to start it all over again) and correctly exposing the LF negative for contact printing as I work mainly on 6x9cm now.
And finding Silver Nitrate over here!

It will be a rather steep learning curve, but being retired I have the time...

[tykos]

i'll just tackle Andrew here and ask him anything about alt processes. After all his videos are so great that made me think about doing these type of prints, so...

1- which one is better for a beginner? kallytipe, van dyke or salt print?
2- i'd be dabbling with 4x5 negatives at the beginning (don't have a suitable printer), if i understood correctly i'd need to underexpose a little and overdevelop, don't i?

[Andrew O'Neill]

i'll just tackle Andrew here and ask him anything about alt processes. After all his videos are so great that made me think about doing these type of prints, so...

1- which one is better for a beginner? kallytipe, van dyke or salt print?
2- i'd be dabbling with 4x5 negatives at the beginning (don't have a suitable printer), if i understood correctly i'd need to underexpose a little and overdevelop, don't i?

The first Alt. processes I started with was the Kallitype. They are not hard to make, but the other two are easier, especially Salt printing. You only need Silver Nitrate, Citric, and salt. Citric Acid's main role is to prevent fog.
You should have a negative density range of about 1.4 to 1.7. Most films expand well, except for a few, like HP5. To get a bit more contrast out of this film for Salt, I'd probably shoot it at box speed, and extend the development time. Films like TMY, I shoot at EI 250, and extend the time, with very little build up of density in the shadow areas.

[phdgent]

The first Alt. processes I started with was the Kallitype. They are not hard to make, but the other two are easier, especially Salt printing. You only need Silver Nitrate, Citric, and salt. Citric Acid's main role is to prevent fog.
You should have a negative density range of about 1.4 to 1.7. Most films expand well, except for a few, like HP5. To get a bit more contrast out of this film for Salt, I'd probably shoot it at box speed, and extend the development time. Films like TMY, I shoot at EI 250, and extend the time, with very little build up of density in the shadow areas.

Thank you,
The part about the negative density range is very interesting, revealing, as I always found that Hp5+'s contrast was somewhat high and exposed it a 200ASA an developed less, now I will have reverse this doing...

But, perhaps, this had to do with subjects I usually choose, Romanesque architecture where the contrast between the light source and the shadows is sometimes difficult to bridge let alone the midrange...
That's why I thought (hoped) that Salt Printing could help expanding the tonality of the image.

[tykos]

The first Alt. processes I started with was the Kallitype. They are not hard to make, but the other two are easier, especially Salt printing. You only need Silver Nitrate, Citric, and salt. Citric Acid's main role is to prevent fog.
You should have a negative density range of about 1.4 to 1.7. Most films expand well, except for a few, like HP5. To get a bit more contrast out of this film for Salt, I'd probably shoot it at box speed, and extend the development time. Films like TMY, I shoot at EI 250, and extend the time, with very little build up of density in the shadow areas.
thanks!
i'm seeing lots of formulae with some sizing added (gelatin, cornstarch, etc): is this something i can skip for the first tests?
can i use standard photographic rapid fixer (ammonium thiosulfate) or do i need to mix a sodium thiosulfate one from scratch?
if i wash thoroughly can i have a decent permanent print (like standard photographic process ones) or do i need to tone it?

(ok, i'll look into some comprehensive resources)

[chuck461]

This is a very good manual on salt printing

MECHANISMS OF CONTROLLING
COLOUR AND AESTHETIC
APPEARANCE OF THE
PHOTOGRAPHIC SALT PRINT

A thesis submitted in fulfilment of the requirements for
the degree of Master of Applied Science (Photography)

Eleanor (Ellie) D. Young


https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/15614798.pdf

[jnantz]

Christopher James' alt process tome has all sorts of good stuff in it as well ...
not a free download but not too spendy and worth every penny ( like Denise Ross' emulsion book if you don't have it )
from what I remember its all about the pulp the paper is made from
so you put the sizing on the paper depending on what it's origin story might be.
I've had no issue with Hannam .. platinum rag with just salt, no extra arrowroot or gelatin &c.
PR worked great for every process I used it for, VDB, Salt, Albumen, Platin, Cyano, Gum, Silver Gel ..
only problem is I only have 1 kidney left to sell on the black market to fund the monkey on my back
and that silver nitrate is quite spendy!

[paulbarden]

Thank you,
The part about the negative density range is very interesting, revealing, as I always found that Hp5+'s contrast was somewhat high and exposed it a 200ASA an developed less, now I will have reverse this doing...

But, perhaps, this had to do with subjects I usually choose, Romanesque architecture where the contrast between the light source and the shadows is sometimes difficult to bridge let alone the midrange...
That's why I thought (hoped) that Salt Printing could help expanding the tonality of the image.

HP5+ is a very poor choice for Salt printing; it has far too much base fog. You’ll get far better results from FP4+
I highly recommend you read Ellie Young’s salt printing pdf linked to above.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I agree with paulbarden that HP5 is a poor choice for Salt and all the Alt. processes that I do...I was able to get it to print quite nicely in Carbon, at EI 320 (I normally use it at 250), and develop in a high contrast developer like D-19 (I dilute it 1+1). I'm sure that same approach can be taken with Salt... But, there are plenty of other films that will work with conventional developers (like FP4).
I'll definitely check out the PDF linked above. Thank you chuck461.
@tykos, if you use a paper with internal size (no alkaline buffering), then no further sizing is necessary. I use both Hannemuhle, and Revere Platinum rag papers. They are wonderful. Expensive, but worth it.
I imagine you can use ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer, but I would probably dilute it down more. I've never tried it, so I can't say for certain. You'll have to test it out. If not, mixing the fixer from scratch is pretty easy. You only need Sodium Thiosulfate.

[tykos]

@tykos, if you use a paper with internal size (no alkaline buffering), then no further sizing is necessary. I use both Hannemuhle, and Revere Platinum rag papers. They are wonderful. Expensive, but worth it.
I imagine you can use ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer, but I would probably dilute it down more. I've never tried it, so I can't say for certain. You'll have to test it out. If not, mixing the fixer from scratch is pretty easy. You only need Sodium Thiosulfate.
i'm not scared of mixing my own fixer, just trying to keep down the number of bottles (just a hope).

Thank you all for the books and pdfs, i'll look into them.

[paulbarden]

I agree with paulbarden that HP5 is a poor choice for Salt and all the Alt. processes that I do...I was able to get it to print quite nicely in Carbon, at EI 320 (I normally use it at 250), and develop in a high contrast developer like D-19 (I dilute it 1+1). I'm sure that same approach can be taken with Salt... But, there are plenty of other films that will work with conventional developers (like FP4).
I'll definitely check out the PDF linked above. Thank you chuck461.
@tykos, if you use a paper with internal size (no alkaline buffering), then no further sizing is necessary. I use both Hannemuhle, and Revere Platinum rag papers. They are wonderful. Expensive, but worth it.
I imagine you can use ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer, but I would probably dilute it down more. I've never tried it, so I can't say for certain. You'll have to test it out. If not, mixing the fixer from scratch is pretty easy. You only need Sodium Thiosulfate.

The Revere Platinum isn't cheap, but it's far less expensive than the Hahnemuhle. Revere is $52 for 25 sheets of 11X15 and the Hahnemuhle is $75.5 for the same size/quantity. That's a big difference.
In the middle is Berger COT 320 paper at $69 for 25 sheets of 11x15. I have used all three and actually prefer the Berger COT 320 for alt prints. It has a bit more "punch" to the finished prints than either of the other two.
I should also mention. that there is Canson Platine for alt printmaking, at $69.71 for 25 sheets of 11x15 (I'm using B&H prices for these quotes). It is also a favorite of mine. But having used all four of the papers I've just mentioned, the differences between them is modest at most. You could work on any of them and get very nice prints.

Yes, you can use a rapid fixer on Salt prints (or Kallitypes, etc) as long as you tone the print before fixing. (which is what you should be doing if you value your work) I most often use TF-4 fixer at standard dilution for 45-60 seconds for each of two baths. It will not bleach the print, as long as you've toned it.

[Cor]

I agree there are better films than HP5+ in this context, but it can be made to work. I only had 8*10 HP5+ and first I would process them in a Pyro developer enabling me to print both a silver gelatin contact print and a alt. print (in my case a Ziatype, pure platinum print, Cyanotype or a Kallitype). The Pyro stain acts as extra density needed for the alt. prints. later I first processed HP5+ in Xtol (actually MyTol home brewn), than if needed bleach the negative and re-develop in Pyro, this worked somewhat better, but the relative high B+F is indeed a problem.

Good luck,

Cor

[tykos]

This is a very good manual on salt printing

MECHANISMS OF CONTROLLING
COLOUR AND AESTHETIC
APPEARANCE OF THE
PHOTOGRAPHIC SALT PRINT

A thesis submitted in fulfilment of the requirements for
the degree of Master of Applied Science (Photography)

Eleanor (Ellie) D. Young


https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/15614798.pdf

this is pure gold.

Beware: don't be dumb like me, the first half is a technical thesis that scared me. In the second part, however, there's a "Salt Printing Manual" that is spot on. It says it was supposed to be published as a standalone book, but unfortunately i haven't found it anywhere.

[paulbarden]

this is pure gold.

Beware: don't be dumb like me, the first half is a technical thesis that scared me. In the second part, however, there's a "Salt Printing Manual" that is spot on. It says it was supposed to be published as a standalone book, but unfortunately i haven't found it anywhere.

Ellie did indeed format that paper and publish it in book form (https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Print-Manual-Ellie-Young/dp/144528328X/ref=sr_1_3?crid=15CLDSA2UQ8DD&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.himvXHZBT8C1oCKmt_eP5WutwZIPif9CF4rcdJVvm9q_BwZ-PJ6RQgbhz9gPr6hHRa8ulubqi7ycxoGbidvMzdyDJyRSx7MJsC1FJhDMhFe496Uz1sn2QiG-p-7FmqQjzwmRUoplu341yAgIRCY4ig0brnnv7D9rea-D4R9ySVlkVP1qIYZ-agr0zou1SbUQfQU7oMOwlsGUWjRs7ZXxvVNug8OEl9lvjQpt2U7GdBc.iq0jve6h2M7teyHLpV6Ltb6XOf5LSfWX1Klhomsh1sg&dib_tag=se&keywords=Ellie+Young&qid=1737046502&sprefix=ellie+youn%2Caps%2C236&sr=8-3). And yes, it is the single most valuable resource I have used to guide my Salt Print practice over the past 4 years. It contains an excellent manual and I use Ellie's technique to this day.

[tykos]

Ellie did indeed format that paper and publish it in book form (https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Print-Manual-Ellie-Young/dp/144528328X/ref=sr_1_3?crid=15CLDSA2UQ8DD&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.himvXHZBT8C1oCKmt_eP5WutwZIPif9CF4rcdJVvm9q_BwZ-PJ6RQgbhz9gPr6hHRa8ulubqi7ycxoGbidvMzdyDJyRSx7MJsC1FJhDMhFe496Uz1sn2QiG-p-7FmqQjzwmRUoplu341yAgIRCY4ig0brnnv7D9rea-D4R9ySVlkVP1qIYZ-agr0zou1SbUQfQU7oMOwlsGUWjRs7ZXxvVNug8OEl9lvjQpt2U7GdBc.iq0jve6h2M7teyHLpV6Ltb6XOf5LSfWX1Klhomsh1sg&dib_tag=se&keywords=Ellie+Young&qid=1737046502&sprefix=ellie+youn%2Caps%2C236&sr=8-3). And yes, it is the single most valuable resource I have used to guide my Salt Print practice over the past 4 years. It contains an excellent manual and I use Ellie's technique to this day.

oh! i looked for the publisher written on the thesis but she auto published it and it's available in italy, i'll grab this.

[shelby_wright]

This is a very good manual on salt printing

MECHANISMS OF CONTROLLING
COLOUR AND AESTHETIC
APPEARANCE OF THE
PHOTOGRAPHIC SALT PRINT

A thesis submitted in fulfilment of the requirements for
the degree of Master of Applied Science (Photography)

Eleanor (Ellie) D. Young


https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/15614798.pdf

This is awesome, thanks for posting!

I've exchanged a few emails with Ellie in the past, she runs Gold Street Studios (https://www.goldstreetstudios.com.au/), an alt process supplier in Australia. Everything I bought from her was great, and I hope to attend some of the workshops they offer in the future when I move back.

[Rick A]

My go to info source for salt printing.

[notorius]

I am going to try my first salt prints in the coming weeks and this thread has become very valuable source of information in a such short period of time! Thank you all.
Regarding the suitabilty of particular film - is Fomapan 100 in any way a good/bad choice in your eyes? Unfortunately the price of FP4+ and my preferred sheet size(13x18) makes it little bit more difficult to me when chosing the film stock.

[paulbarden]

I am going to try my first salt prints in the coming weeks and this thread has become very valuable source of information in a such short period of time! Thank you all.
Regarding the suitabilty of particular film - is Fomapan 100 in any way a good/bad choice in your eyes? Unfortunately the price of FP4+ and my preferred sheet size(13x18) makes it little bit more difficult to me when chosing the film stock.

Fomapan can be suitable for Salt print negatives, yes. It has a bit more base density than FP4, but not enough to be particularly problematic.
But you will have to develop it appropriately to suit the long scale of the salted paper: the high density areas must be much darker than a normal negative to work. If you follow Ellie Young's instructions for FP4 (see the link provided earlier), then you will be very close to an ideal negative with Fomapan, but you may need to experiment with development times. It would be ideal if you can develop the Fomapan in PMK (Pyro), but you can likely get suitable negatives in even something like D-76 if that's all you have.

[CreationBear]

Inspirational topic! A question about workflow: after a piece of paper is salted and dried, how much time do you have before you need to coat with silver nitrate and continue the process? My usual daily routine precludes me from just strapping in for an uninterrupted darkroom session, so I’m always looking for ways to multitask.

[paulbarden]

Inspirational topic! A question about workflow: after a piece of paper is salted and dried, how much time do you have before you need to coat with silver nitrate and continue the process? My usual daily routine precludes me from just strapping in for an uninterrupted darkroom session, so I’m always looking for ways to multitask.

At least a week. Although it's not my practice, I believe some people salt their paper and store it for many weeks before sensitizing it. But once you've applied the AgNO3, you have no more than (about) 24 hours to expose and process the print. If you want to store salted (but not yet sensitized) paper for more than a week, it's best to store it in a sealed container with a desiccant.

[CreationBear]

Excellent, thanks Paul! BTW, I was hoping to use arrowroot sizing on Revere (happened to find your great “Forest Study” on Flickr yesterday) and was wondering: does it keep relatively the same as ordinary gelatin sizing? The recipe in Ellie Young’s appendix seems to overkill for a low volume printer like myself, so I was curious how much to make up.

[paulbarden]

Excellent, thanks Paul! BTW, I was hoping to use arrowroot sizing on Revere (happened to find your great “Forest Study” on Flickr yesterday) and was wondering: does it keep relatively the same as ordinary gelatin sizing? The recipe in Ellie Young’s appendix seems to overkill for a low volume printer like myself, so I was curious how much to make up.

I've found that most good papers don't require any sizing, and that includes the Revere. In fact, I have found that gelatin and arrowroot cause problems more often than not, so I have abandoned any sizing materials when preparing papers for salt prints.

[CreationBear]

Excellent, thanks for clearing that up—so sodium/ammonium chloride then?

[paulbarden]

Excellent, thanks for clearing that up—so sodium/ammonium chloride then?

Yes, you can apply either NaCl or NH4Cl as your salt, sans sizing. Do you have a manual for salt printing? Christina Anderson's book is invaluable.

[j.e.simmons]

When I did albumen, I stored paper for years after salting before sensitiizing nd using. I would think salt paper would be the same. I too recommend Chris Anderson's book.

[jnantz]

When I did albumen, I stored paper for years after salting before sensitiizing nd using. I would think salt paper would be the same. I too recommend Chris Anderson's book.

same here (both)
her book is great .. and I have some salted albumen I made 2020 that's still good, and some salted gelatin that's good and even older ..


Excellent, thanks for clearing that up—so sodium/ammonium chloride then?

the color palette of the image changes depending on the salt you use. NaCl can deliver a wide variety of tonalities depending on where it's from. Niépce I think used ammonium or potassium chloride (sorry I can't remember which one) for his long exposed unable to be fixed salt prints he made in his obscura, they (ammonium and potassium chlorides) will also deliver a variety of tonalities.

Salt prints are a blast - good luck !
john

[CreationBear]

Heard at the breakfast table this morning: “Um, honey, why is there a metal gym locker in the Amazon cart? ;). Like the man said, luck favors the prepared mind…

Thanks for input, gents: the Anderson book is in the queue as well!

[esearing]

Heard in my kitchen - something you ordered is expected to arrive today - Was it the gold toner for Salt printing or clearance Foma 400 film from Freestyle? I just said, ok.

[jnantz]

you can also tone salt prints in selenium. .. might be more affordable than gold if you spent all your money on silver nitrate ..

[paulbarden]

you can also tone salt prints in selenium. .. might be more affordable than gold if you spent all your money on silver nitrate ..

My recommendation is to buy the Gold chloride and Ammonium thiocyanate from ArtCraft and DIY. It's far less expensive than buying it pre-made. Also, you use such a small amount of gold per print that the cost is actually quite minimal. Not as cheap as Selenium, of course, but Selenium is notorious for giving harsh orange tones when used on many "alt" print techniques.

[jnantz]

My recommendation is to buy the Gold chloride and Ammonium thiocyanate from ArtCraft and DIY. It's far less expensive than buying it pre-made. Also, you use such a small amount of gold per print that the cost is actually quite minimal. Not as cheap as Selenium, of course, but Selenium is notorious for giving harsh orange tones when used on many "alt" print techniques.

Sounds like a plan. The ones I made using selenium had a warmth to them, no orange but I can see what you mean, orange is orange ..

[esearing]

I tried selenium once before and it didn't seem to shift the color like gold toning does. The gold toner from B&S, while expensive, is actually practical. You get 500ML Gold and 500ml AT which you use diluted at 50:50:1000. Replenish 5ml for every 8x10 print. I tried the gold toner directly after the first wash and on another print after fixing. The color tone is about the same. The B&S kit for salt print is affordable too for anyone wanting to try it. I wasn't impressed with Hahnemuhle Rag which likes to pill when wet. Arches was much smoother and held up better but I only had a couple of small sheets to test with. Paper is expensive!.

The image below is a compilation of this weekends attempts. I added the PD to the salt which gave it the yellow color to boost the contrast of the negative. I had previously built a UV light box when I was experimenting with Moersh's Lobotype.

256755
top Plain paper > Salted > Silvered. Bottom. clearing washed > gold toned. (wet)

[Andrew O'Neill]

I have no pilling with Hahnemuhle. I've switched over to Revere Platinum, as it's cheaper.

[CreationBear]

Excellent, Eric—curious if anyone is using Thiourea toners like Clerc’s? Iirc, you tone after fixing, then add a secondary fix afterwards. Otherwise glad to hear you’re trying to keep up with Wolfgang—he really comes up with a bewildering array of effects with his processes/toning regimens.:)

[paulbarden]

Excellent, Eric—curious if anyone is using Thiourea toners like Clerc’s? Iirc, you tone after fixing, then add a secondary fix afterwards. Otherwise glad to hear you’re trying to keep up with Wolfgang—he really comes up with a bewildering array of effects with his processes/toning regimens.:)

I strongly suggest you read Ellie Young's paper (https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/15614798.pdf) on salt printing and toning for color effect. The various recipes for gold toners are mostly just variations on a theme. One isn't really "better" than any other. There are so many factors that determine the final print color, including your choice of salt, the paper you're using, exposure method, etc. The toner is just one of those factors.
It is better to gold tone a salt print before fixing, to avoid any loss of the lighter values. You CAN tone after fixing, but it's not ideal.

[CreationBear]

Thanks, Paul—I did a quick recce of Young’s treatise but really need to study it a bit more…print color really seems to depend on a bewildering number of variables. I will happily take “not splotchy” for the foreseeable future and call it a win. :)

[jnantz]

Exposing outdoors in sunlight - open shade and bright sun ... ( UV & Blue reflected off of snow this time of year reduces exposure time ) really change the tonality compared to artificial light .. a while instead of a little while with artificial light, ... if you have the time and patience, it can really yield great results.. you can do a small inexpensive test by just making a contact print with regular photo paper in the sun, or a cyanotype, and the same thing in a light box, you'll notice the tonal range is a lot more expanded and tonality is different.

[esearing]

I will happily take “not splotchy” for the foreseeable future and call it a win.

try different brushes - I use a damp foam brush or a hake style brush and get different coating results. Sizing the paper with kitchen gelatin made a difference for me a while back.