Is Kodak Chemistry Going Away? [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Salmo22

2-May-2023, 12:09

Oren Grad

2-May-2023, 13:27

Eastman Kodak isn't in the chemistry business. Sino Promise owns the Kodak-branded chemistry business, has had a range of issues maintaining supply. The failure of Tetenal in Europe has also thrown a wrench into the supply chain for B&W chemistry products from a range of suppliers.

Afraid I don't have time to try to write a complete explanation of what is a very messy situation. If you have the patience, you can get some insight by wading through this thread at Photrio:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/adox-chemistry-security-of-supply.198778/

Michael R

2-May-2023, 13:37

They are different companies. Eastman Kodak in Rochester makes the film. Alaris does most or all of the distribution of still films. The chemistry business is currently owned by a Chinese company called Sino Promise and it has been a shit show, like a lot of things over the past few years.

I don't know what the current state of Sino Promise or the Kodak chemistry catalog is. It would suck if it disappeared, but on the other hand as much as I love Kodak film I can do without the B&W chemistry. I'd miss XTOL but I could easily go back to D-76 or use D-23. D-76 gives almost identical results with general purpose films anyway. I just mix it myself or buy 1 liter Ilford ID-11 since I don't like the Kodak package size. Same for Dektol - the developer I have always used but stopped buying it when they discontinued the small packages. Neutral print developers are mostly interchangeable at this point.

A fellow LF photographer dropped by Tempe Camera today (Arizona) to purchase some fixer. He was told by one of their senior management folks that Kodak is getting out of the chemistry business. He said their suppliers tell them that Kodak will continue to produce film, but is getting out of the chemistry business. Is this old news? Another Kodak rumor? I don't use Kodak chemistry, so it wouldn't impact me, but I know several local photographers that have been using Kodak chemicals for decades. I hope Tempe Camera is just misinformed.

Drew Wiley

2-May-2023, 15:30

Pretty much all the popular traditional Kodak darkroom-related products are popping up from numerous alternative sources anyway, or have had direct generic substitutes for quite awhile already.

Greg

2-May-2023, 15:52

I stopped using Kodak brand chemicals years ago and never looked back. Between Freestyle and B&H, I can easily get whatever I need in only a few days. State surplus stores sometimes offer great bargains on unopened bottles Kodak Chemistry. A while back bought a dozen or so bottles of Kodak Sodium Sulfite and they are working out fine. Enough to last me for the next five years. Also bought a box of several dozens of packets of XTOL... bad purchase. Two of the first packets that I mixed up and used turned out to be bad. I just threw the rest away.

Drew Wiley

2-May-2023, 16:19

Eastman Kodak once had an enormous industrial chemical and dye division; I don't know what remnants of that they have retained for internal production or subcontracting to others. Going forward, don't forget Photog Formulary; these have numerous substitutes for sale.

Oren Grad

2-May-2023, 17:24

Eastman Kodak once had an enormous industrial chemical and dye division

Eastman Chemical was spun off from Eastman Kodak in 1994. It's still around, doing fine in a wide range of non-photographic markets. But photo chemicals now come from elsewhere.

https://www.eastman.com/en

Michael R

3-May-2023, 06:45

This is true. For B&W XTOL (and HC-110 obviously) are the only tricky ones but Adox/Fotoimpex seems to have done a good job on their XTOL clone. The sundries are quite easily replaceable and actually some (their B&W fixers) were superseded long ago, though I still use Kodak's stop bath, Photoflo and selenium toner. Mostly habit and nostalgia.

The color chemicals are another matter when it comes to replacements.

Pretty much all the popular traditional Kodak darkroom-related products are popping up from numerous alternative sources anyway, or have had direct generic substitutes for quite awhile already.

paulbarden

3-May-2023, 07:04

I will no longer buy Kodak chemistry. In recent years, after Sino Promise took over chemistry manufacture, I've bought bad batches of Xtol, D-76 and Dektol, and so I have abandoned Kodak chemistry entirely. Now, I buy the raw ingredients (hooray for Artcraft Chemicals!) and make my own chemistry. Mytol is a great Ascorbate developer substitute for Xtol and easily made at home.

Mytol

Water ..................................... 750 ml
Sodium sulfite (anhydrous) ....... 60 g
Sodium metaborate 4H2O ........ 4 g
Sodium ascorbate ................... 12 g
Phenidone .............................. 0.15 g
Sodium metabisulfite ............... 3 g
Water to 1 L

Note: this recipe for Mytol isn't going to be something you can store for long. Best to make it fresh and use it within 48 hours.

Michael R

3-May-2023, 07:17

The complication with home-mixing of ascorbate developers is that aside from Ryuji Suzuki's formulation attempt, the lack of a strong iron/copper chelating agent makes the developer very vulnerable to fast-paced oxidation which the user will not know about beforehand. The most easily obtainable chelating agents such as EDTA or Calgon won't help.

Since XTOL is only a tiny net improvement over D-76, D-76 is a more reliable option for the home mixer.

jnantz

3-May-2023, 12:10

A fellow LF photographer dropped by Tempe Camera today (Arizona) to purchase some fixer. He was told by one of their senior management folks that Kodak is getting out of the chemistry business. He said their suppliers tell them that Kodak will continue to produce film, but is getting out of the chemistry business. Is this old news? Another Kodak rumor? I don't use Kodak chemistry, so it wouldn't impact me.

have you called kodak alaris to ask them for some information? someone who might be of some help is Mr Mooney he posted his contact information on a pug a few years ago >> profilm@kodakalaris.com ( also found on https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers/resources ) .. they might not be honest if they are phasing out the chemistry licensed with their name on it though. years ago when then Eastman Kodak was consolidating timber and paper milling concerns in South America I called and spoke with people at EK and they were like "oh it's nothing we do this all the time" and a few months later ... photochemistry's so easy to mix oneself if your favorite gets canned you won't be in too much trouble..the only difference between now and 1899 is it's a mail order apothecary ( artcraft, the formulary, bostick and Sullivan &c ) instead of the corner druggist where you'll find your essentials.

Michael R

3-May-2023, 13:44

I don't think Alaris has anything to do with the chemicals. They just market/distribute still films and do a few other things. You'd have to contact Sino Promise about the chemicals. I doubt they will tell you anything about business plans/issues but anyway.

See here https://kodak.sinopromise.com/photo-chemistry.html

have you called kodak alaris to ask them for some information? someone who might be of some help is Mr Mooney he posted his contact information on a pug a few years ago >> profilm@kodakalaris.com ( also found on https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers/resources ) .. they might not be honest if they are phasing out the chemistry licensed with their name on it though. years ago when then Eastman Kodak was consolidating timber and paper milling concerns in South America I called and spoke with people at EK and they were like "oh it's nothing we do this all the time" and a few months later ... photochemistry's so easy to mix oneself if your favorite gets canned you won't be in too much trouble..the only difference between now and 1899 is it's a mail order apothecary ( artcraft, the formulary, bostick and Sullivan &c ) instead of the corner druggist where you'll find your essentials.

Oren Grad

3-May-2023, 14:28

I don't think Alaris has anything to do with the chemicals. They just market/distribute still films and do a few other things.

This. The chaotic and still-evolving separation of manufacturing from branding and marketing rights coming out of the Eastman Kodak reorganization is the ongoing source of enormous confusion among that great majority of users who don't spend their time closely following industry news. It damages the very brand value of which all the players are trying to take advantage.

jnantz

3-May-2023, 16:56

This. The chaotic and still-evolving separation of manufacturing from branding and marketing rights coming out of the Eastman Kodak reorganization is the ongoing source of enormous confusion among that great majority of users who don't spend their time closely following industry news. It damages the very brand value of which all the players are trying to take advantage.

yea it's a confusing mess. .. but this isn't too confusing. KA licensed the name to SP to make chemistry, just like EK licensed the name for Champion to make it before SP ...

I don't think Alaris has anything to do with the chemicals. They just market/distribute still films and do a few other things. You'd have to contact Sino Promise about the chemicals. I doubt they will tell you anything about business plans/issues but anyway.

See here https://kodak.sinopromise.com/photo-chemistry.html

IDK i figger KA might know what's going on with stuff with their name on it, wouldn't you? it's probably a large source of income ... the thing is it's probably in their contract they have to play dumb and make believe they have no clue...

Tin Can

4-May-2023, 06:26

only yesterday I looked at my perfect Kodachromes

even 65 years on

watched the farewell movie 3 times so far

Rest in Peace

Kevin Crisp

4-May-2023, 06:40

Paul Simon was right.

Sal Santamaura

4-May-2023, 08:51

yea it's a confusing mess. .. but this isn't too confusing. KA licensed the name to SP to make chemistry, just like EK licensed the name for Champion to make it before SP...

I've no insider information, but am relatively certain that 1) Kodak Alaris didn't simply license Sino Promise to make photo chemicals, it sold that business outright and 2) Eastman Kodak merely hired Champion to make photo chemicals before the bankruptcy, never licensing anything to Champion.

...IDK i figger KA might know what's going on with stuff with their name on it, wouldn't you? it's probably a large source of income ... the thing is it's probably in their contract they have to play dumb and make believe they have no clue...

As best I can determine, recent Kodak-branded photo chemicals had no markings of Kodak Alaris on them. Sino Promise was apparently identified as the manufacturer. Having sold that business to Sino Promise, Kodak Alaris is unlikely to obtain any further income based on future sales.

If anyone has better insight (I've not purchased Kodak-branded photo chemicals since all this transpired, but occasionally seen images of labels that others posted in forums), please correct any errors in this post.

jnantz

4-May-2023, 09:56

https://www.sinopromise.com/index/contactUs.html
and
info@sinopromise.com
and
https://www.sinopromise.com/themes/cooperation.html

William D. Lester

11-May-2023, 14:33

Took delivery of a bottle of indicator stop bath this week. The label says made in the USA for Kodak Alaris. No idea how old it is. Best before date is late 2024. It is the newer round bottle.

Fungus

15-Jul-2023, 18:13

Michael R

15-Jul-2023, 18:40

There isn’t much reverse engineering involved. Fotoimpex XT-3 or Legacy Pro Eco Pro.

Has anyone, such as Photographer’s Formulary, come out with an exact replacement for Xtol? It’s just a matter of reverse engineering the formula. Kodak’s patent expired in 2016.

MartinP

16-Jul-2023, 13:49

There isn’t much reverse engineering involved. Fotoimpex XT-3 or Legacy Pro Eco Pro.

Or Foma Excel, all the same thing really though the anti-dust design of the Adox/Fotoimpex product is impressive. At least in Europe, these alternatives are available in one liter packages as well as five liter, which can be handy.

Tin Can

16-Jul-2023, 15:39

I will never trust KODAK CHEMS again

I use simple chems

and will not discuss it anymore

Renato Tonelli

16-Jul-2023, 16:43

Fungus

21-Jul-2023, 10:30

There isn’t much reverse engineering involved. Fotoimpex XT-3 or Legacy Pro Eco Pro.

I'd like to mix my own, but I haven't found a complete formula anywhere. I've read that the chelating agent Kodak uses is not one of the common ones such as EDTA.

Michael R

21-Jul-2023, 11:46

Mixing your own ascorbate developer without a strong iron/copper chelating agent isn’t the best idea. You really need DTPA (which XTOL, XT-3 etc. contain). It is obtainable but expensive. Ryuji Suzuki had a workaround for DTPA using salicylic acid and TEA. Alternatively you can most likely get away without DTPA if you mix what you need immediately before use, although that’s not a guarantee.

The Zawadzki patent formula is extremely close to, if not exactly XTOL - at least up until several years ago when the packaged formula replaced metaborate with borax.

I'd like to mix my own, but I haven't found a complete formula anywhere. I've read that the chelating agent Kodak uses is not one of the common ones such as EDTA.

Ben Calwell

21-Jul-2023, 13:21

I miss HC-110. Is it gone forever?

Michael R

21-Jul-2023, 14:10

I miss HC-110. Is it gone forever?

Who knows. Ilford’s equivalent probably works the same as HC-110, though without the shelf life of older versions of the HC-110 concentrate.

jnantz

21-Jul-2023, 14:53

I'd like to mix my own, but I haven't found a complete formula anywhere. I've read that the chelating agent Kodak uses is not one of the common ones such as EDTA.

you might look into caffenol.

Joseph Kashi

21-Jul-2023, 17:44

Mixing your own ascorbate developer without a strong iron/copper chelating agent isn’t the best idea. You really need DTPA (which XTOL, XT-3 etc. contain). It is obtainable but expensive. Ryuji Suzuki had a workaround for DTPA using salicylic acid and TEA. Alternatively you can most likely get away without DTPA if you mix what you need immediately before use, although that’s not a guarantee.

The Zawadzki patent formula is extremely close to, if not exactly XTOL - at least up until several years ago when the packaged formula replaced metaborate with borax.

What about mixing with distilled water? No iron or other metals in distilled water and hence nothing to chelate.

Fungus

21-Jul-2023, 17:58

Mixing your own ascorbate developer without a strong iron/copper chelating agent isn’t the best idea. You really need DTPA (which XTOL, XT-3 etc. contain). It is obtainable but expensive. Ryuji Suzuki had a workaround for DTPA using salicylic acid and TEA. Alternatively you can most likely get away without DTPA if you mix what you need immediately before use, although that’s not a guarantee.

The Zawadzki patent formula is extremely close to, if not exactly XTOL - at least up until several years ago when the packaged formula replaced metaborate with borax.
DTPA? Interesting. I didn’t know anyone used it in a developer. I’ve only heard of it being used to treat poisoning by heavy radioactive elements like plutonium.

Do you know how much is needed to make a liter of stock solution?

Michael R

21-Jul-2023, 18:31

Distilled water is always good practice when mixing developers from scratch but it doesn’t necessarily solve this particular problem because the metals in question are often impurities in bulk ingredients - in particular sodium sulfite.

What about mixing with distilled water? No iron or other metals in distilled water and hence nothing to chelate.

Michael R

21-Jul-2023, 19:13

DTPA? Interesting. I didn’t know anyone used it in a developer. I’ve only heard of it being used to treat poisoning by heavy radioactive elements like plutonium.

Do you know how much is needed to make a liter of stock solution?

DTPA is in several commercially packaged developers, not just XTOL or its clones such as XT-3. The form most commonly used is the sodium salt DTPA-Na5. The XTOL patent suggests up to 0.02mol/l can be used but the formula itself calls for 1g/l. DTPA-Na5 is typically available as a 40% aqueous solution, so you just add enough of that to get to 1g of DTPA-Na5. It’s not the cheapest chemical around. When I bought it 500ml of the 40% solution was around $100 if memory serves.

XTOL is great but for home mixing it is far easier to make D-76/ID-11. Remember that XTOL was only a minute improvement over D-76. I doubt anyone would know the difference especially with large format film.

paulbarden

21-Jul-2023, 21:21

I've made Mytol (an ascorbate recipe) which gives nearly identical results to Xtol.

I no longer buy any "Kodak" chemistry - I make all my own developers from scratch (except for FA-1027)

Ben Calwell

22-Jul-2023, 07:24

Who knows. Ilford’s equivalent probably works the same as HC-110, though without the shelf life of older versions of the HC-110 concentrate.

I have a bottle of HC-110 from, I think, 2007. It still gives me very good negatives. I’ve also been mixing and using D23.

paulbarden

22-Jul-2023, 07:37

I just noticed that B&H now lists HC-110 as "discontinued"! I wonder if this is the first signs of the end of Sino Promise producing Kodak branded chemistry? Wouldn't be surprised.

Michael R

22-Jul-2023, 08:00

I have a bottle of HC-110 from, I think, 2007. It still gives me very good negatives. I’ve also been mixing and using D23.

D-23 is always a good candidate for home mixing. So simple, and will give very similar results to D-76. Hard to go wrong there.

For those wishing to make a long lasting ascorbate developer that duplicates XTOL’s working characteristics try googling the two-part developer “MOCON” (which stands for Mark Overton Concentrate). This was a project documented on APUG in a long thread years ago and came to a successful conclusion with many contributions from Ron Mowrey, chemist Gerald Koch and others. If I remember correctly Ryuji Suzuki also helped. Mark did extensive testing throughout with the goal of duplicating the working properties of XTOL but with the benefit of a long-lived concentrate. Anyway just throwing it out there as another option for those interested.

I would call XT-3 the most convenient clone at this point. Unfortunately it isn’t always easy to get. Freestyle sells it but it is often out of stock, and ordering it from Fotoimpex can be an expensive pain, though it might make more sense if one is ordering a lot of it.

Drew Wiley

22-Jul-2023, 08:55

There have been multiple re-issues of HC-110 under the neo Kodak label, as well as generic substitutes from both Legacy Pro and Ilford. They're all purported to work similarly. I don't know about long-term storage life. I'm still using up the original syrup concentrate which I bought over 25 years ago. But overall, it certainly doesn't sound like a crisis for anyone needed this specific kind of developer. Freestyle currently has in stock both the Kodak label and generic Legacy Pro at slightly lower price.

Torquemada

22-Jul-2023, 09:13

Kodak has really been dead in terms of developers for years..

legacy pro has their xtol knock off that they say was developed with assistance of a few people who developed Xtol for Kodak in the day..

i dont use it as the product quality went to crap... from actual x tol and legacy pro.

Kodak Photo FLo is tricky to learn to use correctly but works..