Are there planar-type lenses longer than 135mm for large format?

[StuartR]

I recently found a copy of the 135mm 3.5 Zeiss Planar T* and I have been very impressed with the lens. I love the rendering of the out of focus areas, and my copy is quite sharp even wide open. On medium format one of my favorite all time lenses was the 110mm Planar, and I feel like the 135mm renders quite similarly. The only thing I find is that I would love to have something similar in a longer focal length...perhaps closer to 210mm. I know that Zeiss themselves did not make modern LF lenses other than the 135mm, but I am curious to know if there were other lens designs that rendered in a similar way. I have some lovely plasmats that are great, just curious if there are lenses that render similarly. To give an idea, here are two shots done wide open that have its characteristically smooth out of focus rendering. Do the Cooke lenses share a similar character?
(Edit: the images look pretty bad here once uploaded, but they are quite sharp and nice in person.)

233670

233671

[domaz]

It looks like Igor has a Zeiss Planar 205mm f/4 on "Hold" for someone. So they are out there, but I haven't encountered very many of them. Have you tried a more common f/4.5 Tessar design lens to see how the Bokeh compares? In my experience fast Tessars are quite good and underrated.

http://www.igorcamera.com/zeiss_large_format_lenses.htm

[sharktooth]

Schneider used to make the 150mm f2.8 Xenotar, and you can still see used ones around. They're very expensive, and they barely cover 4x5, so forget about using any movements.

[David Lindquist]

It looks like Igor has a Zeiss Planar 205mm f/4 on "Hold" for someone. So they are out there, but I haven't encountered very many of them. Have you tried a more common f/4.5 Tessar design lens to see how the Bokeh compares? In my experience fast Tessars are quite good and underrated.

http://www.igorcamera.com/zeiss_large_format_lenses.htm

That Igor lens is described as "brass" and must be an example of the "original" Planar designed by Dr. Paul Rudolph in 1896 (Rudolph Kingslake, A History of the Photographic Lens, Academic Press, 1989).

In his excellent paper on the large format lenses of Carl Zeiss Oberkochen, Arne Cröll mentions a 210 mm f/5.6 Planar, made only as a prototype. He also mentions some 150 mm f/2.8 Planars, also made only as prototypes. See: https://www.arnecroell.com/zeissoberkochen.pdf

David

[Vaidotas]

Planar is complex double gauss type of lens.
For some unknown to me reasons there is not much this type of lens for large format photography in longer focal lenghts.
Kodak wide field Ektar, Meyer Aristostigmat, Wollensak series 1 are wide angle lens, common in shorter FL.
For 210 mm there is Rodenstock Eurynar (some of them are dialytes, some dagor style) and Ross Homocentric (some of them dagor style).
There is slim chance to find them single coated and shuttered.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Other than the longer Zeiss planars, Schneider made a handful of 210mm f2.8 Xenotars, like 10 or so. Really really rare. In 30 years of obsessing about fast lenses I have seen two sell (last one was ~20 years ago for $5000).

[Bernice Loui]

Read this paper on ~Large format lenses from Carl Zeiss Oberkochen 1950-1972~
By Prof. Arne Cröll

https://www.arnecroell.com/zeissoberkochen.pdf
Specific to Zeiss for sheet film, most common is the 135mm Planar, followed by a few prototypes made by Zeiss noted in this article.

Current sought after double Gauss (Planar formula) 4x5 sheet film lenses are
~Kodak Aero Ektars:
https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/01539/01539.pdf

~Schneider Xenotar, 135mm & 150mm.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?138566-Schneider-150mm-f-2-8-Xenotar&highlight=150mm+xenotar
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?108819-Difference-between-Xenotar-135-3-5-and-Zeiss-Planar

~Komura 152mm f/2.8:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?155898-152mm-f-3-5-amp-2-8-KOMURA-experiences-wanted

There is more to in to out of focus rendition and bokeh than lens formula alone. Having owned/used the Hasselblad 110mm f2 Planar in the past it does have nice into out of focus rendition at full aperture, as does the 135mm Planar, 120mm Planar, 100mm planar.. once stopped down the lens aperture blades take effect and the in to out of focus rendition and bokeh changes, not for the better..

Prime advantage of the double Gauss formula is good optical correction at large apertures. The f2.8 / f3.5 double Gauss lenses for 4x5 were designed and intended for hand held 4x5 press cameras where large lens aperture was an advantage back in those times. It does result in a lens that is large. This combined with shutter size limitations and the need for camera movements and smaller exposure apertures for the majority of images made using a view camera back then greatly limited the rational and market need for these large aperture lenses.

Essentially, camera movements were far more valued than large lens full aperture.

There were a number of Zeiss Planar process lenses made, these had low contrast due to lack of lens coating technology when these were made.
Demo_ed on example decades ago, no thanks. That experience explained why these early Zeiss Planar process lenses were not successful in the market..

Notable alternative would be the Zeiss Sonnar which was also discussed in By Prof. Arne Cröll paper on Zeiss LF lenses.
Example of in to out of focus rendition and bokeh, 180mm @ f4.8 Zeiss Sonnar, Linhof TK23s 6x9, 120 roll film:
233673

Know majority of modern view camera lenses in modern shutters like Copal, Compur and such often have non-round iris which impacts in to out of focus rendition and bokeh. This is rooted in the way modern view camera lenses were used (majority of the image in focus, optimize performance at f22, typical Plasmat). Much a response to market demands and needs from that era.

Prior to this, in to out of focus rendition and bokeh were valued and why majority of previous generation view camera lenses have round iris in shutter or barrel. It this aspect of view camera lens personality is important to you, consider using view camera lenses from the previous generation in older Compur, Compound, Ilex and other similar vintage shutters. The alternative is to use lenses from that previous generation in barrel with a on camera shutter like Sinar.

Do consider a Tessar formula lens as they have been made for over a century and valued to this day as sheet film view camera lenses due to their in to out of focus rendition and bokeh. Others would be Heilar and similar. Know once at f11 to f16, the advantages of these lens formulas are less, with other lens design formulas like Dagor, Dialyte could become the preferred.


Bernice

[jp]

I'd look for the tessar options. Something 210-ish and 4.5 and lots of round aperture blades. Fujinar 210/4.5 in copal 3s shutter are <$200 on the auction site.

https://live.staticflickr.com/7079/7308686574_f68c84848f_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/c8QVTu)img502s (https://flic.kr/p/c8QVTu) by Jason Philbrook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/13759696@N02/), on Flickr

Other cheap lenses besides the tessar are 210 trioplan (triplet) but it's usually not in a shutter.

[StuartR]

Thank you all for the advice. It is interesting to hear about the 210mm 2.8 Xenotar....though it does not sound like I will find one! I will have a look into tessars. I am not as familiar with them. The aperture blades are also a consideration...that said, I have not had too many problems with unpleasant shapes in the bokeh with most of my LF lenses...not like with Hasselblad V lenses for example. Is the Fuji 450mm 12.5 a tessar type lens? I know it is certainly slower than 4.5, but I use it on 8x10 and find it to be excellent. I am typically shooting it at f22, however.

[slavatokar]

How about an apo-planars (copy lenses)?

[xkaes]

The FUJINON C lenses -- like the 450mm f12.5 -- are 4/4 optics but not Tessar. However, the FUJINON L lenses are -- like the 420mm f8:

233675

[Daniel Unkefer]

I have a 59cm Zeiss Apo Planar F9 in a barrel. Wonderful for 8x10 headshots. Asked Ron Wisner in person about it, he said "Worth every penny". Indeed it is. Very heavy lens.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49913138718_dd48446dd5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j3DTcd)Norma Rodenstock Apo-Ronar collection (https://flic.kr/p/2j3DTcd) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

That's it on the bottom left; My Clockmaker friend forward mounted it on a Sinar Norma board, so it works with the Norma Shutter. Otherwise the rear cell would strike the shutter blades.

On the top, third over is my 600mm Apo Ronar that Glenn Evans forward mounted for me. Same reason, the back of the rear cell should be within 1mm of the Norma Shutter blades. That is according to Sinar.

[StuartR]

I had not considered apo planars, they sound like they deserve a look. Do you have any image samples anywhere?

[Daniel Unkefer]

I had not considered apo planars, they sound like they deserve a look. Do you have any image samples anywhere?

Nope Sorry I do not. I can tell you that it is on par with my Apo Ronars. Frankly I bought it, I had never heard of it, I believe it's quite rare. It has no shutter, it would make a great boat anchor. LOL Takes a strong camera to support it

$300 from MPEX :)

[Dan Fromm]

The FUJINON C lenses -- like the 450mm f12.5 -- are 4/4 optics but not Tessar. However, the FUJINON L lenses are -- like the 420mm f8:

Joe, you wrote "The L (Long ) series lenses offer modified Tessar-type lenses that feature excellent performance due to a reduction in the angle of coverage." in http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byseries.htm. Tessars are not Planars.

[xkaes]

Joe, you wrote "The L (Long ) series lenses offer modified Tessar-type lenses that feature excellent performance due to a reduction in the angle of coverage." in http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byseries.htm. Tessars are not Planars.

I was not suggesting that a Tessar is a Planar. I was simply answering the question in Post #9 "Is the Fuji 450mm 12.5 a tessar type lens?".

The answer is "No", but Fuji did make some Tessars in the long range.

[Tom Sobota]

In a pinch you could try a Russian I-37 300mm f/4.5. AFAIK those are made following the Tessar formula and are easy to get and inexpensive.
Tom

[slavatokar]

7.5/41cm Apo planar:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51630362227_c0caeb79c4_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mEp6V6)0453 (https://flic.kr/p/2mEp6V6) by Вячеслав Филатов (https://www.flickr.com/photos/115618176@N08/), on Flickr

[Bernice Loui]

Carl Zeiss Jena Apo Planar 105cm on eBay now...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255071484469

233699


Bernice

[Daniel Unkefer]

7.5/41cm Apo planar:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51630362227_c0caeb79c4_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mEp6V6)0453 (https://flic.kr/p/2mEp6V6) by Вячеслав Филатов (https://www.flickr.com/photos/115618176@N08/), on Flickr

That is lovely! I have a 420mm F9 Apo Ronar, and it's incredibly useful to me. About the same as a 210 on 4x5

[Bernice Loui]

"It was a Zeiss physicist, Paul Rudolph (b. 14 November 1858 - d. 8 March 1935), who led the effort to develop the world’s first anastigmat (or anastigmatic) lens. Every photo lens made prior to this would image in a way that photographs taken with them, under close inspection, would show one or more defects (termed aberrations in optics). The “anastigmat” was the first among a series of lenses designed for film photography that corrected astigmatism, coma, and spherical aberration. The correction of chromatism, false color that appears as a halo of violet or crimson where contrasting colors meet caused as wavelengths of light passing through glass are shifted, was less of a concern with shorter focal length lenses but improvements in glass technology to solve this in longer lenses would come later. The first of these anastigmat lenses was the Protar of 1890. This would be followed in 1895 with the Planar, the Unar of 1899, the Tessar of 1902 so sharp that it was marketed as the “Eagle’s Eye”, the Plasmat of 1918."
http://www.company7.com/zeiss/history.html

~Back then the Tessar (as did Ludwig Bertle's Sonnar) had an advantage over the Planar (double Gauss) due to fewer number of air to glass surfaces to lower image contrast and better overall light transmission. It was not until proper lens coatings were developed before the Planar ala double Gauss lens design/formula became good and viable. Today, planar_double Gauss lens design/formula IS one of the most commonly produced photographic lenses due to modern coatings, glass types, modern optics production and 'puter aided design.

APO Microscope objectives:

"About 1886 Carl Zeiss started to produce apochromatic objectives, using a naturally occurring mineral called fluorspar, which having very low dispersive powers was used in combination with other types of glass."
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artdec00/pjachromat.html


What has changed since then?
Bernice

[Mark Sawyer]

Current sought after double Gauss (Planar formula) 4x5 sheet film lenses are
~Kodak Aero Ektars:
https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/01539/01539.pdf



Thank you, Bernice! I noticed the Aero Ektars listed don't include the two most common, the 178mm f/2.5, and the 305mm f/2.5. Do you (or does anyone else) know what their designs are?

[Vaidotas]

“Today, planar_double Gauss lens design/formula IS one of the most commonly produced photographic lenses due to modern coatings, glass types, modern optics production and 'puter aided design.”

Small remark: double gauss is mainstream in 135 / FF and that pandemic started Leitz.
And - Zeiss abandoned production of other outstanding lens when Tessar became dominant and most commercial succesful product. Succesfull product and outstanding lens sometimes are in different plates.
To me Zeiss is example of perfect management.

[mhayashi]

The zeiss jena planar Ia 205mm, 250mm, 300mm and so on.
The focal length 205mm and 250mm Ia lenses were made more than others.
So you would see samples for sale online.

https://archive.org/details/photographicobj00goog/page/n39/mode/1up?view=theater

Written in Japanese by a user, you can use translate function in your browser.
https://spiral-m42.blogspot.com/2015/06/zeisspart-3-carl-zeiss-jena-planar-10cm.html

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. Since no one has mentioned them so far, TTH made a variety of f/2 6/4 double Gauss types. Early trade names were OPIC and Series 0. According to the VM, a few 8"/2 lenses were made. I have a 4"/2 Anastigmat ex-Vinten F.95, also used on Williamson F.134 and F.139. Small heavy monster. I don't use it anymore, plasmat type normal lenses for 2x3 are smaller, lighter, in shutter and shoot at least as well at the apertures I normally use. As for bokum, well, shots of busy subjects taken at apertures larger than f/8 with my TTH marvel give me a headache.

Dallmeyer's answer to the OPIC was the Super Six, another 6/4 Double Gauss type. Longer focal lengths included 6"/1.9 (I had one, great heavy monster) and 8"/2.0, later 150 mm/1.9 and 200 mm/2.0. These beasts turn up occasionally, command astronomical prices.

And then there were the French. I've had an S.F.O.M. badged 200/2.0 lens, supposedly made by Kinoptik, from an Omera aerial camera. Greater heavier monster. Boyer made a 200/1.9 Saphir.

[aphcl84]

Lomo made a 180mm 2.8 6/4 planar type projection lens, I'm not sure what format it was meant for, but it covers something like 210mm. It's absolutely enormous and with the way it's manufactured cannot be adapted into a shutter without making entirely new cells for it, but I plan to do exactly that with the two that I own. I expect it will make for a fantastic portrait lens.

[Mark Sawyer]

Thank you, Bernice! I noticed the Aero Ektars listed don't include the two most common, the 178mm f/2.5, and the 305mm f/2.5. Do you (or does anyone else) know what their designs are?

I answered my own question with a bit of internet research this morning. Yes, the 178mm and 305mm f/2.5 lenses are indeed Planar variations of the Double-Gauss design:

http://www.johndesq.nl/graflex/aeromemorandum.htm

[Bernice Loui]

180mm/f2.8 = about.. 64.2mm OD front element, not huge by any means.. The famed 180mm f2.8 Zeiss Sonnar typically has a 86mm filter size..

Big would be something like this Schneider 480mm f4.5 Xenar with a 122mm front filter diameter, works with a Sinar or Packard or similar large shutter:
233726

As for adapting the lens cells, why bother, simply mount this lens on a Sinar lens board then quick install on a Sinar camera with Sinar shutter, done.

Curious, why would this LOMO 180mm f2.8 planar (double Gauss) type projection lens make a "fantastic portrait lens?"

Not the first time projector lenses have been used this way,
Bernice




Lomo made a 180mm 2.8 6/4 planar type projection lens, I'm not sure what format it was meant for, but it covers something like 210mm. It's absolutely enormous and with the way it's manufactured cannot be adapted into a shutter without making entirely new cells for it, but I plan to do exactly that with the two that I own. I expect it will make for a fantastic portrait lens.

[aphcl84]

180mm/f2.8 = about.. 64.2mm OD front element, not huge by any means.. The famed 180mm f2.8 Zeiss Sonnar typically has a 86mm filter size..

Big would be something like this Schneider 480mm f4.5 Xenar with a 122mm front filter diameter, works with a Sinar or Packard or similar large shutter:
233726

As for adapting the lens cells, why bother, simply mount this lens on a Sinar lens board then quick install on a Sinar camera with Sinar shutter, done.

Curious, why would this LOMO 180mm f2.8 planar (double Gauss) type projection lens make a "fantastic portrait lens?"

Not the first time projector lenses have been used this way,
Bernice

The front element on this lens is 92mm, so rather enormous for a 180mm, my Sonnar 180mm is both smaller and lighter, the rear element is 80mm with a 104mm cell diameter so mounting in front of a Sinar shutter would mechanically restrict the image circle and the lens lacks a aperture adjustment. I don't feel that a Sinar shutter would give me the performance that I want and I don't own a Sinar camera anyway. For me it's easier to machine a couple lens cells and mount it in a normal shutter. For portraiture I would be using it the same way that 178mm Aero-Ektars have been used of late, but with this lens the bokeh is far smoother.

[Dan Fromm]

The front element on this lens is 92mm, so rather enormous for a 180mm, my Sonnar 180mm is both smaller and lighter, the rear element is 80mm with a 104mm cell diameter so mounting in front of a Sinar shutter would mechanically restrict the image circle and the lens lacks a aperture adjustment. I don't feel that a Sinar shutter would give me the performance that I want and I don't own a Sinar camera anyway. For me it's easier to machine a couple lens cells and mount it in a normal shutter. For portraiture I would be using it the same way that 178mm Aero-Ektars have been used of late, but with this lens the bokeh is far smoother.

Hmm. Might work with a Compound #5 or Ilex #5. Which shutter do you intend to use?

[aphcl84]

Hmm. Might work with a Compound #5 or Ilex #5. Which shutter do you intend to use?

My plan is to use Compound #5 shutters. The second group is 80mm diameter so it will just fit.

[Bernice Loui]

Curious to see what the images might be like from this lens..
Pictures of this lens?

Know the Compound# 5 has a 64.5mm aperture diameter with a threaded mount diameter of 82.5mm
Been a fan of Compound shutters for decades as they are simple with a nice round iris (if needed) none owned/used has ever made the highest speed noted on the shutter dial. They are all slow by some degree. If flash is used, shutter speed accuracy is not that relevant.

Sinar shutter aperture diameter is 76.2 mm (close to the 80mm rear lens cell dia of this lens) , lens mount diameter limited by what could fit into a 140mm x 140mm square. The mechanical Copal or Norma made in Swiss version goes to 1/60 second and it is really close to that. The Sinar digital goes to 1/500 second and it really IS 1/500 second.

https://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2015/6/compound-5


Bernice



The front element on this lens is 92mm, so rather enormous for a 180mm, my Sonnar 180mm is both smaller and lighter, the rear element is 80mm with a 104mm cell diameter so mounting in front of a Sinar shutter would mechanically restrict the image circle and the lens lacks a aperture adjustment. I don't feel that a Sinar shutter would give me the performance that I want and I don't own a Sinar camera anyway. For me it's easier to machine a couple lens cells and mount it in a normal shutter. For portraiture I would be using it the same way that 178mm Aero-Ektars have been used of late, but with this lens the bokeh is far smoother.

[John Layton]

Would be so great if a solid market for all things LF still existed...to think of the products - like a new series (in response to this thread) of fully coated Planar LF lenses, a new series of compact LF lenses, and further developments of already promising optics like the Cooke PS-945 and Apo Sironar S and W series lenses, as well as continuations of some venerable older optics like the later series of Goerz/Kern Trigors and Red Dot Apo-Artars, Nikkors, et al. And this...to say nothing of parallel sentiments for film, paper and other darkroom stuff - with the possible exception that chemistries do keep up, partly because of their DIY accessability/viability.

Yes, I know...the real world will currently not support any of the above - but I can dream!

[Bernice Loui]

IMO, the era for this LF sheet film view camera stuff is history, done. Only what remains today is the current reality and what can be applied to produce images. Personally, very fortunate to have lived in that era when this sheet film view camera stuff was at it's zenith and very common. All that is in the past now.. Brings up this written memory of the San Francisco South of Market foto district and how the hub of all that activity happened at The New Lab..
http://christianpeacock.com/christianpeac/2009/06/what-new-lab-meant-to-us.html

And this:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=35222

Adding to these memories, met two neighbors that were part of all that in the SF foto district back then, we have plans to share memories over espresso some time soon..

Lenses will be around for along time if they are properly cared for, view cameras due to their innate mechanical design/construction can be fixed and made good with varying degrees of effort, film holders can last good if properly cared for, film and related materials are the real issue for the future of this LF sheet film camera stuff.


Bernice




Would be so great if a solid market for all things LF still existed...to think of the products - like a new series (in response to this thread) of fully coated Planar LF lenses, a new series of compact LF lenses, and further developments of already promising optics like the Cooke PS-945 and Apo Sironar S and W series lenses, as well as continuations of some venerable older optics like the later series of Goerz/Kern Trigors and Red Dot Apo-Artars, Nikkors, et al. And this...to say nothing of parallel sentiments for film, paper and other darkroom stuff - with the possible exception that chemistries do keep up, partly because of their DIY accessability/viability.

Yes, I know...the real world will currently not support any of the above - but I can dream!

[aphcl84]

Curious to see what the images might be like from this lens..
Pictures of this lens?

Know the Compound# 5 has a 64.5mm aperture diameter with a threaded mount diameter of 82.5mm
Been a fan of Compound shutters for decades as they are simple with a nice round iris (if needed) none owned/used has ever made the highest speed noted on the shutter dial. They are all slow by some degree. If flash is used, shutter speed accuracy is not that relevant.

Sinar shutter aperture diameter is 76.2 mm (close to the 80mm rear lens cell dia of this lens) , lens mount diameter limited by what could fit into a 140mm x 140mm square. The mechanical Copal or Norma made in Swiss version goes to 1/60 second and it is really close to that. The Sinar digital goes to 1/500 second and it really IS 1/500 second.

https://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2015/6/compound-5


Bernice

My lenses are currently stored, since I'm in the process of moving, but the lens is a LOMO OKP2-180-1, there are some photos online of them, I had also considered using a Compur Electronic 5FS if I could just find one to repair or replace mine, I really like that shutter but they seem to be very rare. The Copal 3 would actually just work aperture wise but the lens elements are physically larger than the mounting threads.

[Bill Poole]

The f4.5 Tessar have been mentioned as an alternative to the Planars. For what it's worth, I absolutely love the rendering of my 180mm Jena (Zeiss East German) version, which I got from a member here for a very reasonable price, complete with SK Grimes caps and custom mounted by them in a Linhof-style board. In this instance, the out-of-focus rendering from the round aperture in the dial-set Compur shutter seems to persist we'll into the smaller apertures. The lens is prone to flare when pointed into the light (a coating issue, I would guess) but makes lovely photos in lower-contrast and front-lit situations. Hope this helps.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52578808010_f0cb4d99f2_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o7d8NA)Camellia (https://flic.kr/p/2o7d8NA) by William Poole (https://www.flickr.com/photos/poolephoto/), on Flickr