New to LF: Need help troubleshooting these negatives

[DDrake]

I think most of my problem is development, hence posting in this forum.

Maybe the first three pictures I took with my DIY 4X5 camera were cases of beginner's luck, because the next four have some problems. First, the negatives seem very flat to me, and processing in Lightroom doesn't help much. I assume the problem is either exposure or in development or both. Most troubling is the dark triangle in the corner of three of the four--not the same corner in all three, however. The last picture has some vignetting, but I expect that's because I was trying movements beyond what the lens could cover (Fujinon 135mm f/5.6). The dark triangle on this last picture is also the opposite corner from all the others, making me think it isn't a problem with camera or film holders.

The details:

Exposures for 1-3 were between 1/15-1/60, at f/16. Number four was 1/15 at f/22. Film FP4+ 125 ISO, metered at 100 ISO. I realize I may need a set of colored filters to get better results.

Developed taco style in window screen sleeves, in Patterson two reel tank (using equipment I already had). Xtol 1+0, continuous agitation by inversions for first minute, 5 inversions at beginning of each following minutes for total of 7:30. Film may have been skewed in taco sleeves, and there might not have been quite enough developer to cover--perhaps that caused the dark triangles?

My film-loading, handling, and developing practices definitely needs work, given the dust and other glitches. FWIW, I checked out copies of The Negative and Beyond The Zone System from the library today.

Here's the images, unprocessed after scanning (Epson V700, with minor curve corrections):

Picture 1:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47693648252_e420d2f595_b.jpg
Picture 2:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40779809743_40c04d8510_b.jpg
Picture 3:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47693641732_857f6b7388_b.jpg
Picture 4:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33869325088_e962285dbf_b.jpg

[Pere Casals]

I think most of my problem is development

Avoid the Taco until you get some practice. One step after the other.

I'd start with tray development, one sheet at a time. You may place the sheet in developer inside a light tight box, like a paper safe. After development done then you close lights, open the box and move the sheet to another trays with stop bath, after some 20s you may open lights as development is stopped, and then you do the rest (fixing) lights open while you may place another sheet in the developer (light tight box).

Place the emulsion side up, this prevents any scratch when you agitate (with care) the box.

In this way you may refine your development time for each sheet, you don't scratch the sheets (in Taco there is a risk), and development is uniform.

Taco is a good choice, but start with a simpler way.

______

Also you may make some exposure bracketings at the beginning, a view camera has several factors in the exposure, a major one is that old mechanical shutters may have inaccurate speeds, requiring a CLA, but even when new those shutters were sold with a -/+30% speed accuracym so 1/30 can be 1/20 or 1/40, this is a 1 stop range. Also we have the bellows compensation and inaccurate aperture scales in the used marked comming from a replaced shutters, each lens has its scale for the same shutter...

When you can you should get a shutter tester, some are as cheap as $20, search ebay.

__________


First adjust Normal development, with some bracketings followed by regular development time with fresh developer and well controlled temperature. They you may experiment with -/+N exposure/development to expand or compress contrast and dynamic range...

So to get practice in the Zone System development avoid Taco, at the beginning each sheet is a testing procedure, better one by one. Once you get practice then you'll have the criterion to prefer another way.

190770

190772

190771

190773

[Two23]

Buy a Stearman sp445 for processing. It will make your life so much easier.


Kent in SD

[Mark Sawyer]

First suggestion: Don't be discouraged. Whatever development method anybody chooses, pretty much everybody blows some at the early stages.

Second suggestion: If you're considering moving up to even larger formats some day, learn tray developing. It will follow you along through any format with no need for new equipment other than trays you probably already have.

[DDrake]

Pere, thanks for the input. Your points regarding drawbacks to taco method, and benefits of developing one sheet at time are well-taken. Unfortunately, I don't have easy access to a darkroom, or a room in my house than can be easily darkened. So daylight tanks will have to do for now. The shutter tester is a good idea, and the eBay ones are inexpensive enough to try. It also has occurred to me taking a photograph with my digital camera of the same scene either just before or just after I make an exposure with the 4X5, using same aperture, ISO, and shutter speed may give me some information (and work as a visual note). Obviously, depth of field will be different, and just about all my m43 lenses stop at f/16, but it could be worthwhile.

Kent, thanks for the recommendation. The SP-445 was on my list--I think I'll go ahead and order it this week.

[Jim Jones]

You can eliminate the difference in depth of field if the lens on the digital camera is set to cover about the same area as the lens on the LF camera, and the aperture on both lenses appears to be the about the same linear diameter as seen through the front of the lenses.

As for analyzing the problems with your negatives, it helps to show us the entire negative, edge to edge, not just the image area.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I see some vignetting maybe they are a bit flat however, I think you have some good images that can be brought out in the PS world. It is also important how you convert the negative to a positive. I use ColorPerfect to convert my negatives. They also may print well traditionally, but I do not have experience in that yet. As for developing, I use the sp445 with great success, I also have used a tube process and have taken to developing one sheet at a time.

Overall, I think you did good on these images and do not look at issues as problems, but rather learning moments.

[DDrake]

Jim Jones--the film holders for the scanner I'm using masks the edges of the negative. But here's a few quick iPhone snaps from a light table (inverted in Lightroom CC) that show whole negatives:
190834 190835 190836 190837

Mark and Steven--thanks for the encouragement. I'm pretty determined to persevere and iterate until I can make images that come closer to the results I imagine. One thing that may be throwing me off is the composition: I've been using a 15mm lens on m43 almost exclusively for more than a year (rough equivalent of 90mm in 4X5, if I understand the math correctly), and often shooting from a low angle, crouching or kneeling. These LF images were taken with 135mm from eye level. I took another set of four today with the tripod much lower. I'll develop the negatives in a day or two and see. Meantime, SP-445 is ordered and on the way.

[koraks]

A few remarks, but keep in mind it's always hard to judge scans and photos of negatives that have been corrected to a large extent (automatically or manually):
* Your images look quite OK in terms of highlight + shadow detail. I bet they print just fine, even though they may require a fairly high paper grade. However, you shot under low-contrast lighting and your development wasn't really geared towards pushing contrast much either, so limited contrast in the negatives is to be expected. Again: they probably print fine.
* Apart from the black corners (which I take as an artifact of your taco approach; partially overlapping sheets perhaps?) there seems to be some uneven development going on in at least image #2 (post above) and a little less so in the others as well. Looks like your taco approach doesn't yield optimal results, which is to be expected. As remarked by others: a better developer tank or an attempt at tray development will resolve most or all of these issues (and bring some new ones, but that's for another day).
* The vignetting in the last image looks like a coverage issue, but hey, it looks quite nice, doesn't it? I'd say it's a happy little accident. If you want to prevent it in the future: use a lens with a larger image circle, don't apply too much front rise and stop down to improve coverage, or a combination thereof. Keep an eye on the ground glass and read a bit on judging coverage on the ground glass; there's little tricks for it.

All considered, you didn't too badly at all. In fact, it all looks quite hopeful and I'm sure you'll iron out the kinks pretty quickly.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

One thing, did you use a wide angle bellows or a standard bellows? I shot almost exclusively with 75mm Nikkor f/4.5 on 4x5. The wider you go with wide angle lenses using regular bellows, the more likely it is the bellows will cover part of the image. I take back off to load film and that also affords me a look to be sure bellows is not in way. My Schneider 90mm XL f/5.6 has a huge rear elm so it is really important to double check bellows, especially with tilt, shift and rise/fall.

Also I tend to shoot two exposures, one at calculated exposure and one at least a stop over, maybe take third image two stops over if a critical image I cannot duplicate easily.

[koraks]

How do you get your regular bellows in the light path with a short focal length? That would involve some serious distortion of the bellows.
The reason why bag bellows are used is because you physically can't compress a regular bellows enough to the short lengths required by short lenses while remaining flexible enough to allow for movements.

[DDrake]

Hi Steven,
Standard bellows--straight not tapered--with Fujinon 135mm f/5.6. At this point, based on comments here and looking into it further, I'm convinced the issue with the dark corners (not including obvious vignetting in image 4) was poor placement of film in taco sleeves and of tacos in tank, resulting in a corner of each negative sticking up higher than expected, combined with not using enough developer to completely cover those corners. As I mentioned up-thread, I've ordered a SP-445 tank, so that should prevent similar problems in the future.

[devb]

The dark triangle in the corners is from the film getting pinched by the funnel lid in the 2-reel Paterson tank. It happened with every single sheet I did before I switched to the 3-reel tank. I feel like the 3-reel tank also gives the solution more room to move and bring fresh chemicals to the film surface.

[Two23]

Hi Steven,
As I mentioned up-thread, I've ordered a SP-445 tank, so that should prevent similar problems in the future.


You'll love the SP445. For me, it was a game changer.


Kent in SD

[DDrake]

Much happier with images from this set. Shot in more dramatic late afternoon light. Pulled back a little on exposure. Developed yesterday in my new SP-445 tank, and extended development time + more frequent agitation. Scanned and adjusted in Lightroom, including a little split-toning to emulate printing on warm-toned paper.

Need to work more on composition, but the fresnel lens I added makes it much easier to see the whole frame.

Comments and critique welcome.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32855642947_84a67fc444_b.jpg

[Two23]

You're on the right track.



Kent in SD

[Steven Ruttenberg]

How do you get your regular bellows in the light path with a short focal length? That would involve some serious distortion of the bellows.
The reason why bag bellows are used is because you physically can't compress a regular bellows enough to the short lengths required by short lenses while remaining flexible enough to allow for movements.

It is quite possible and I have posted pictures of it getting in the way. The bag bellows. Allows more room when compressed to a short focal length like 75 mm. I have enough movement with my tapered bellows at these short focal lengths, but it can interfere when shifting or tilting too much. I had two shots of grain elevators from the Palouse last year that it did just that chopping off a good quarter of the bottom of the image. I have seen this in others images as well. Two of these images shows bag bellows but interference from the standard which is another issue. But if your bellow sags it can interfere as well. I have to be careful with my 90mm Super Angulon f/5.6 with its ginormous rear element so I use a bag bellows for that one for sure.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Much happier with images from this set. Shot in more dramatic late afternoon light. Pulled back a little on exposure. Developed yesterday in my new SP-445 tank, and extended development time + more frequent agitation. Scanned and adjusted in Lightroom, including a little split-toning to emulate printing on warm-toned paper.

Need to work more on composition, but the fresnel lens I added makes it much easier to see the whole frame.

Comments and critique welcome.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32855642947_84a67fc444_b.jpg

Looks much better.

[DDrake]

Thanks, Kent and Steven.

Out of curiosity, Steven, how'd you happen to be photographing on the Palouse? (That's my home base).

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Thanks, Kent and Steven.

Out of curiosity, Steven, how'd you happen to be photographing on the Palouse? (That's my home base).

I have gone last three years. I would like to go again this year, but don't yet if I can swing it. Me and a couple of friends have made it. It is a shame what the photography workshops and photographers have done in getting restrictions put on those of us who respect others and their property.

[DDrake]

I have gone last three years. I would like to go again this year, but don't yet if I can swing it. Me and a couple of friends have made it. It is a shame what the photography workshops and photographers have done in getting restrictions put on those of us who respect others and their property.
Huh. I've occasionally seen what are obviously photo tours pulled over by the side of the road, but haven't heard of any particular problems. Obviously, nobody's going to be happy with folks who tromp through planted fields or trespass, and I suppose some do, just to get 'their' shot.

I've been focused pretty exclusively on my local landscape the past couple years, but am most interested in images that depart somewhat from the iconic Palouse. I'd like to think I know a few spots that are off the beaten path.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Huh. I've occasionally seen what are obviously photo tours pulled over by the side of the road, but haven't heard of any particular problems. Obviously, nobody's going to be happy with folks who tromp through planted fields or trespass, and I suppose some do, just to get 'their' shot.

I've been focused pretty exclusively on my local landscape the past couple years, but am most interested in images that depart somewhat from the iconic Palouse. I'd like to think I know a few spots that are off the beaten path.

Cool. I wanted to photograph the cemeteries in the region last time I was there, but my buddies were not interested and a bit skiddish about it.

What time of year would you recommend as the best time to be there?

[Two23]

I drove from Redmond, WA through North Cascades to Palouse Falls last month. I liked the Dry Falls area the best, Palouse Falls second. I didn't see anything else that really got me excited. Most of the area looked like central Nebraska to me. Scab Lands was really different. Few I talked to in Seattle have ever been out there and I had to show them on a map what I was talking about.


Kent in SD

[DDrake]

Cool. I wanted to photograph the cemeteries in the region last time I was there, but my buddies were not interested and a bit skiddish about it.

What time of year would you recommend as the best time to be there?

Most times of the year, you'll find some compelling combination of light and form to photograph.

Late fall and early spring can be pretty bleak, and that's when we get most of our rain.

From now until sometime in July is classic Palouse green rolling hills, right now broken up with some plowed earth, and blooms on the trees and shrubs. Also a good time for the drier river canyons, like the Potlatch and Snake River in Hells Canyon--still green, not too many snakes, lots of wild flowers.

By June or July, the distinction between deep green wheat and lighter peas, lentils and garbs is strong, and rape seed fields are in flower--insanely bright yellow. Late July into August the wheat is ripe and harvest starts, but that doesn't last too long. Usually a good bit of smoke from wildfires that time of year as well, which makes for good sunsets and the occasional apocalyptic-looking daytime shot.

Winter is a personal favorite--usually decent amount of snow by mid January, not a lot of sunny days, but often the landscape looks black and white even shot in color. Can be tough to get around on the back roads.

Here's a couple snaps from a small cemetery a few miles southeast of Pullman--apparently, one of the last vestiges of original Palouse prairie. Approximately same camera position, one winter, one a couple days ago. These are digital (Lumix GX85 or Oly Pen F w/ Pana-Leica 15mm), but I have four sheets of 4x5 I'll develop tomorrow. Will post in the LF landscape thread if any are decent.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33938202958_4db0cf164e_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40848847763_403d46a7a1_b.jpg

[DDrake]

Hi Kent,
I've made that drive a few times. The Palouse proper is somewhat south and east of where it sounds like you were. As I mentioned above, early spring is not really a crowd-pleaser--lots of earth tones and mud, with plenty of flooding this year. Channeled scab lands are definitely spectacular--it's amazing to think what happens to a landscape when a lake covering about half of Montana drains in a couple days.

Seattle has more than a few folks who did their four years on the east side at Washington State University. Whether they ever learned to love the landscape (let alone the drive through Central Washington) is open to question.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Very cool images. Just takes lots of exploring to find cool things to photograph. I have some 4x5's I shot last year, I can put up here in a bit for you to look at.

[DDrake]

Very cool images. Just takes lots of exploring to find cool things to photograph. I have some 4x5's I shot last year, I can put up here in a bit for you to look at.

Sure--be great to see them.