Invest in a 6x17 camera, please help me decide ...

[Ling Z]

I am currently considering investing in a 6x17 camera. It looks like I could have many options, would you please give me some of your advice?

1. Since I own a Sinar p2 5x7 and an Arca Swiss F-Metric 5x7 camera, the cheapest solution is to purchase a 6x17 roll film holder, such as a Canham 617 RFH. However, I was told the Canham RFH won't fit these two cameras;
2. Purchase a Canham MQC 5x7 , a Tachihara 5x7 or a Titan Walker XL , and a Canham 617 RFH. The complete setup would cost over $3,500. It does give me some movements, such as front tilt, shift, rise and fall, and I can use all of my 5x7 lenses, but it's hard to convince me to purchase a new 5x7 camera for shooting 6x17 only;
3. Purchase a cheap 6x17 RFH which can fit a 4x5 camera, such as a Shen-Hao. Badger Graphic used to sell it for $625, but I could not locate it on Badger Graphic's website any more. Also, I heard that only 90 to 180mm lenses could be useful;
4. Purchase a Fuji GX617 (I heard Fuji might have decided to discontinue GX617) or a Linhof Technorama 617S III plus two or three lenses. This setup is very very expensive, and it does not provide any movements.

If you have some experience with one or more of above setups, I shall be grateful if you could give me some inputs.

Merry Christmas!

Ling

[Frank Petronio]

http://www.badgergraphic.com/ is selling Fotoman panoramic cameras, which are rough and less expensive clones of the Linhof ($1599 USD). They are also listing Glide cameras, which cost even more than Linhofs and are essentially handmade.
http://www.badgergraphic.com/search_product2.asp?x=2812 (http://www.badgergraphic.com/search_product2.asp?x=2812) The back looks removable, so perhaps it could be adapted by the factory to be used with a Sinar or Arca.

Their website could use improvements and it is often slower than snail snot, but Jeff is a good guy to buy from. Very honest.

I believe that Art-Panorama in Japan makes a better quality 6x17 back, and the V-Pan camera uses a custom 6x17 back, although I rarely see them listed by stores or eBay. I think they are out of production, but maybe somebody else can pitch in with current info. There are also near custom camera manufacturers that would probably make you a 6x17 back - see the custom cameras made by Arturo Rebora in Italy: http://www.exakta.org/rebora/ (http://www.exakta.org/rebora/)

Just out of curiosity, why do you have a P2 and an Arca-Metric? Aren't they nearly the same in functionality (geared movements, excellent quality)? Why not consolidate your cameras? And for that matter, why not just continue to use 5x7 film and crop to panoramic proportions? Or curb your desires for 6x17 and get the superbly crafted 6x12 backs from Linhof or Sinar?

I went through the same thought process and ended up with a 120 format Noblex - it is a great compliment to the fixed large format camera (where I can duplicate the 6x17 format using regular film and lenses) - but the Noblex or another rotating lens camera makes an image significantly different from what you already can do... (if I had more money I'd get a Steitz Roundshot.)

Have fun - all your options sound like fun.

[Frank Petronio]

Dr. Glide (why do I think of porno shops and sex toys?) has a seperate back that looks like it could adapted.


http://www.gilde-kamera.de/en/zu3.html (http://www.gilde-kamera.de/en/zu3.html)

[Claire Curran]

Ling, why don't you call Keith Canham and speak with him about modifying the back on his 6x17 RFH. It would be far less expensive to modify a 6x17 back to fit one of your 5x7 cameras. I modified my V-Pan 6x17 back to fit my Canham 5x7. It cost me $200. A bargain. A local machinist did the work.

[Danny Burk]

Ling, if you've not already visited my site, I have a review of the Fuji vs Linhof 617 models online:


http://www.dannyburk.com/linhof_617_s_iii.htm (http://www.dannyburk.com/linhof_617_s_iii.htm)

I use both models extensively and will be glad to help if you have particular questions.

The 617 format is a great favorite of mine! In addition to the above, I've just gone the Canham 5x7 + 617 rollfilm back route, and I'll be able to post a review of that combination soon. (I've only had it for a very short time, but so far I'm impressed with its capabilities.) I got it mainly so that I can use lenses longer than the 300mm of the Fuji 617, but the ability to get movements with all of my LF lenses is a terrific side benefit.

I've seen the Shen-Hao 617 back and am not impressed. You're right that it can only be used with lenses from 90-180mm without vignetting. It's also very dark and difficult to focus; I can't recommend it. I've also seen the Gilde camera at Badger Graphic; it's certainly interesting, but extremely expensive and doesn't allow movements. I don't have any personal knowledge of the Fotoman or Art Panorama products.

Regards,
Danny

[Brian J Nelson]

Ling,

I would talk to Keith Canham or SK Grimes about adapting either the Canham back or the camera back to accept the 6x17 back. Otherwise you have to reinvest in lenses and cameras. Not to mention you have so much versatility with swings and shifts with your sinar or Arca.
I have a 5x7 technika. I had SKGrimes modify the canham back so it slides in and out of the linhof back like the groung glass. It's very slick. I can e-mail photos if you wish.
If you purchased another sinar 5x7 back (like on ebay) and permanently attached the canham back to it. You would spend less money and have more to work with than switching to a different camera system.

[Eric Jones]

Hello Ling,

The Shen-Hao 617 and 612 film backs are located under "Roll Film Holders" in the Large Format Accessories page on the Badger Graphic Website. Hope this helps.

Eric

[Marco Annaratone]

Hi Ling,

it very much depends on your style of picture taking. If you are doing mostly LF anyway and once in a while you need 6x17 the suggestions above are all right on the money: get a 6x17 LF camera back or crop sheet film. Let me make a case then for panorama cameras. I shot both 6x17 (a long term rental Linhof Technorama) and eventually bought a Horseman SW612. The ease of use and freedom that a 6x17 or 6x12 panorama camera gives me compared to a bulkier, slower LF setup with panorama back is invaluable: not much weight, 3lb tripod is ok, small head, hand-held shooting is not a problem, quicker action, etc etc. I was going around with the Linhof loaded with 1600ASA B&W film pushed to 3200 and shooting hand-held at night in the city. A blast. I do shoot LF as well, but I do it 25% of the time, that's why I have been naturally oriented toward panorama cameras, I think, and never bought into the idea of a LF panorama back.

Going around with a small bag and the Horseman SW612 is a real joy. Panorama cameras are great if you shoot IR because you compose in the viewfinder and can leave the filter on all the time. BTW, I did consider a 6x17 but then I decided for a 6x12 because the 6x17 was too extreme for my style and when I do need a 1:3 ratio (and some time I do), I just crop my 6x12 to 4x12 without too much loss of quality, I believe. And I enjoy the advantage of a very compact solution. As for movements, I bought the SW612 (no movements) instead of the SW612Pro (with rise/fall) because this camera was for me first a way to shoot hand-held, and second---a distant second---something to use on a tripod. I shoot with it landscape and city stuff. If you shoot architecture it is different, but then you might as well use one of your great LF cameras!

Cheers

[Ellis Vener]

The backs on both the Arca-Swiss and Sinar 5x7 cameras can be adapted to take the Canham 6x17 back. The Shen Hao back , like the ArtPan design they knock off, limit your focal length and movement range becasue the film plane is at the back ofthe back where as the Canham back puts it up in the existing film plane for your cameras.

[Ling Z]

Thanks for so many valuable suggestions, really appreciate it!

Frank, I consider Sinar P2 and AS F-Metric are two different tools. Sinar P2 is definitely the king for studio work, while F-Metric is much more portable for field use with some Sinar precisions. Sinar accessories are very cheap and easy to acquire. I purchased my Sinar 5x7 conversion kit on eBay's German site (yes, it has lots of Sinar 5x7 stuff) for only $500. I love both, and I won't part with either of them.

Danny, I visit your site very often. It's very impressive and helpful. I would like to hear more from you after you complete your review on Canham MQC/617 RFH combo.

Brian and Ellis, I heard the Canham 617 RFH was too thick to slide under the ground glass. I shall be appreciate it if you could give me some more details about how the camera can be adapted.

Ling

[Ellis Vener]

I reviewed the Canham 6x17cm back for View camera early in 2003.

A graflock mechanism (the sliding bars that lock the back into place) are added to the format frame of the camera. there are a couple of other ways to modify the back if the groundglasss is removable. Contact Jeff Wheeler at Quality Camera ( sales@qualitycamera.com ) for details ; also contact Keith Canham ( keith.canham@cgcmail.maricopa.edu) I know he'll be happy to discuss how other photographers are using the back with different cameras, but he isn't a big e-mail user so he might not get back to you immediately.

[giancatarina]

i've worked once with the fuji G617 (firts version with 105), and the was wasn't so good. I wanted to buy a linhof but the lack of movements ... at the end, i've bought a techno rollex 612 to put on my arca Fline so i can use a lot of lens, i can have a polaroid test, and i can have movements... , i finally prefer 6x12 over 6x17. If sometime i need 6x17 aspect ratio i can always crop my 6x12 to 4,5x12 ... but be aware that a 612 back is heavy, it's ok for an arca, but not thatb good with a technikardan!

[Bob Salomon]

"but not thatb good with a technikardan!"

Assuming your locks on your TK are properly adjusted the TK has no problem handling a Super, Cine or Techno Rollex back.

If you have one of these with a TK and a movement slips. Then your locks need to be adjusted back to factory spec.

[Frank Petronio]

The Linhof 6x17 has a better finder and keeps the film flatter (I think, looking at the mechanics) than the Fuji. It also handles better. But either the Linhof or the Fuji are excellent cameras, and I wouldn't kick either out of bed!

[Ben_4657]

I have a GX 617 and a 90mm.

Expensive but lighter than a P2 (6 lbs vs 13) and I got some good shots handheld (but it's of course not the best solution).

But given the price of the other lenses (around 2300$ each) and having several good LF lenses, i'm thinking of a Fotoman 617 or 617 Pro (release in june 2005). This latter should allow movements (rise/fall) and have a removable back (to be confirmed).

The LF lens is attached to the body by means of cones (designed for a given lens). It seems you can switch the lens easily between your cones and lensboards.

Approx prices : 1600 $ for the 617, 2500 $ for the 617 Pro and 500 $ for a cone.

I got most of these info from Paul Groluk from Fotoman

Hope it helps.

[Peter Clemons]

I currently own both a Fuji 617 and a V-pan. I usually refer to my Fuji as the world's largest point and shoot. I find with the V-pan I often use it in the verticle position or take close-ups, almost as a macro. I enjoy the ability to compose the picture, rather than just shooting landscapes.

I stumbled upon this web site, cause I was looking up who designed the V-pan. I am planning to put the one I own for sale on Ebay. I also own the Canham 5X7 and was going to buy that back. It would be a hugh decrease in weight.

I'll hold off listing the camera on Ebay. If anyone is interested in buying it, please let me know. The asking price is $1800 and I'll pay shipping to the continental US. You will be responsible for any customs if not a US buyer.

Thanks.

Peter

[Bob Salomon]

"(I heard Fuji might have decided to discontinue GX617)"

They have discontinued it according to Fuji.

[Josef]

Hi Ling!

I don't know, if you decided yet.

I own Linhof, with 180mm, 90mm and 72mm lenses since 2001 and I am very satisfied with it. I have to say, I made a back with a ground glass screen, which is absolutely necessary to work exactly. I use the 180mm lens up to 90% of my landscape work. ( I have in this moment one more 180mm and a viewfinder to it as I need. ) I find, that Schneider lenses are really very good, Linhof has the shortest wide angle lens ( 72mm ) among all 6x17 cameras on the market. You need it rarely, but if you need it, it's an absolute need!

I hope, I could help you.

Best reghards

Josef

[Bob Salomon]

" I made a back with a ground glass screen, which is absolutely necessary to work exactly. I use the 180mm lens up to 90% of my landscape work"

Linhof now offer a gg back for the 617 SIII lenses (the tripod socket is in the lens not the camera).

[Rob Johnson-Taylor]

I'm tempted by th 6x17 format as well, but sadly fuji have withdrawn the GX617. So now I'm looking at the Fotoman 617 at about half the price of the fuji, plus it takes a wide range of large format lenses. Fotoman are just releasing a 6x24 but is this just to big - its tempting!